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Thread: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

  1. #346
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    If you really think the Reds gave up more talent than they got, I respectfully disagree.

    Just keep in mind the value of a TOR type pitcher like Latos under your control for four years still age 24. Very, very valuable player.

    Any good young catcher who can hit is valuable I don't doubt that.

    But beyond Grandal, I don't think the Reds gave up anything too significant.

    Yonder has potential to be a solid starting first baseman, but he doesn't hit for power and plays a power position. Just not sure he is that valuable a commodity.

    To me, this was basically Grandal plus for Latos. More than a fair deal for the Reds from a talent perspective.

    And, of course, the comparison between Mes and Yasmani will take years to resolve. There are things about Mes I like quite a bit, he's just really not quite ready for prime time just now.
    As far as I'm concerned this shouldn't even be debated. Because while both Yonder & Yasmani are indeed talented, they were BOTH completely blocked. So they were ONLY useful to us as trade chips. So in essence, we traded to unusable minor leaguers and a walk machine for a potential ace.
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  3. #347
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Oh, Grandal...

    Hide your power alleys; Hide your wife

  4. #348
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Wilson was a fine receiver with an OPS+ lifetime of 80+, never higher than 95+.

    We traded him for Bret Boone, who brought us, inter alia, Denny Neagle, who brought us, inter alia, Drew Henson, who brought us Wily Mo Pena, who brought us Bronson Arroyo. We also got Edwin Encanacion from those deals.

    Reds had catchers like Taubensee, Santiago and Oliver during these periods, so that position was generally covered.

    All in all, a great trade.

    You generally must give to receive.
    I would certainly not call that a great trade. I would say a fair trade at best. That's quite a stretch of events culminating with a very lucky Wily Mo for Arroyo trade after the absolute Bowden disaster of a deadline trade to the Yanks to give up Neagle in 2000 -- while receiving a bunch of overhyped Yankee prospect garbage in return. Taubensee was a catcher in name only, but did have a great offensive '99 to help with the magical season along with Neagle. Santiago at the end of his career and Oliver filled in adequately.

    A fair trade, but Wilson provided a decade of stability and absolutely top notch defense behind the dish for some very good Mariner teams. Boone had one good year with the Reds in '94 and was adequate in '95 before his ped inflated move back to Seattle in the late 90's where he had a run of 3-4 monster seasons. How much a stable Dan Wilson could have helped the Reds pitching staff and defense from '93-'02 is the big unknown.

    Someone nailed it above, Grandal may end up not being a catcher when all is said and done. If Latos becomes a TOR pitcher then this becomes a great trade for the Reds no matter what.

  5. #349
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    I would certainly not call that a great trade. I would say a fair trade at best. That's quite a stretch of events culminating with a very lucky Wily Mo for Arroyo trade after the absolute Bowden disaster of a deadline trade to the Yanks to give up Neagle in 2000 -- while receiving a bunch of overhyped Yankee prospect garbage in return.
    So what if it was lucky?

    So what if it was a "stretch of events" if they actually happened. The value we got for trading Wildon is still contributing to us.

    Neagle never pitched an effective inning after the trade by us. We ended up with Arroyo. That's a fact. Hard to call that a disaster.

  6. #350
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Well, Latos has found his mojo lately. Probably due to him reading my criticism of here on Redszone. (laugh, it's a joke)

    I said at the time of the trade that Grandal and Alonso were blocked. It was debatable who was better, Mez or Grandal....... but the experts on here said Mez was the better "true" catcher, which means defense and calling games. I don't think anyone has debated Grandal's "offense". And if he was a catcher, he probably is slow of foot, and will struggle at another position. If he develops consistent power, heck, he may move to 1B, and San Diego will have to deal with what the Reds dealt with and consider moving Alonso to LF.........wouldn't that be funny?

    I really only hated trading Grandal and Boxberger. I was worried Grandal's offense might come back to bite us in the butt, and that Boxberger was progressing so fast through the system, he looked like a sure bet quality reliever. But Doug always says relievers are a dime a dozen, so I'll take his word for it.

    Frankly, I think it'll end up being a good trade for both teams in the long run. Padres weren't going anywhere, as evidenced by this season. The Reds filled a need (quality starting pitching), unloaded a problem (Volquez), and gave up 3 really good prospects of which 2 were blocked at the major league level. And seeing how the Reds bullpen is one of the best in all of the major leagues, I don't see where they'll miss Boxberger.

    So in the immediate, they moved guys who were going to sit in the minors several years for a serious need that is helping now. I sound like that radio commercial for the Duo Card from 5th Third. "Immediate" and "now". LOL.
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  7. #351
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    So what if it was lucky?

    So what if it was a "stretch of events" if they actually happened. The value we got for trading Wildon is still contributing to us.

    Neagle never pitched an effective inning after the trade by us. We ended up with Arroyo. That's a fact. Hard to call that a disaster.
    It was a fair trade, not a "disaster".

    Yes, 5.5 years later (by amazing luck) the Reds received some solid value from 2006-2008 until Arroyo started being overpaid to the market in 2009. The botched Neagle trade at the 2000 deadline was a big contributor to the lost decade and the complete pitching futility of 2001-2005. What Neagle did after 2000 was irrelevant, he was the premier starting pitching chip at the 2000 deadline and Bowden blew it bigtime and accelelerated the franchise towards the lost decade.

    Given how poorly the franchise was run back then it may not have mattered but a couple of ready MLB arms in the 2001-2005 stretch wouldn't have hurt when the offense was playing beer league softball.

    I'll trust the FO on the Mes/Grandal situation going for the true long term positional catcher with middle of the order potential.

    Now I think we can all agree that finding 1-2 replacement level (or even close) LH bats to balance the 25-man roster shouldn't be a major July task. Otherwise we will see more games like today where it comes back to bite this team in the butt.

  8. #352
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    Grandal just hit his 4th home run at Arizona.
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by gilpdawg View Post
    Grandal just hit his 4th home run at Arizona.
    Not to take away from the guy, but all of those homers have occurred so far on the road. Should be interesting to see how he does at home in Petco.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  10. #354
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    I am happy to see Grandal in San Diego (well after the next four games) instead of a franchise that will be a playoff caliber contender over the next 2-3 seasons.

    He's going to be a good one and I'd kill to get a switch hitting bat in this unbalanced lineup, but Mes is starting to come around at the plate and keeps getting better on the defensive side (throw to 3rd last night in the 8th on the blown call was amazing).

  11. #355
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    I am happy to see Grandal in San Diego (well after the next four games) instead of a franchise that will be a playoff caliber contender over the next 2-3 seasons.

    He's going to be a good one and I'd kill to get a switch hitting bat in this unbalanced lineup, but Mes is starting to come around at the plate and keeps getting better on the defensive side (throw to 3rd last night in the 8th on the blown call was amazing).
    It is nice to see Yasmani do well, I just hope Mes does as good or better but I would love a switch hitter....YG is a great kid from all I have been told from a few scouts, you like to root for kids like that regardless of what team he is on and being the Reds drafted him, I want him to do well and could care less about the trade and will never look down upon Walt for doing the trade.....he did what he thought he had to do, and the Padres did what they thought they had to do.

    Most of us would bend under the everday pressure of making a trade of that caliber, I for one am glad its not me

  12. #356
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Trade idea:
    Stubbs, Heisey, Ludwick, Lutz, Arroyo, Soto, Lotzkar, Villarreal, Sulbaran for Grandal.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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  13. #357
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    This was my first look at Grandal. The thing that struck me was his noodle arm. Can he stay at catcher with that weak of an arm?

    Alonso = Sean Casey?

    Volquez, I know we did not get to him, but watching him pitch is still as brutal as it ever was.

    It is hard to imagine that just two years ago, the Padres missed winning the Western Division by a whisker.
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  14. #358
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    This was my first look at Grandal. The thing that struck me was his noodle arm. Can he stay at catcher with that weak of an arm?

    Alonso = Sean Casey?

    Volquez, I know we did not get to him, but watching him pitch is still as brutal as it ever was.

    It is hard to imagine that just two years ago, the Padres missed winning the Western Division by a whisker.
    There have long been questions about whether or not Grandal could stick at catcher.

    I always said that Alonso was Sean Casey, but he was the Sean Casey who was 40 doubles/25 HR with a .300 average. Of course that changes when you put him in Petco, but I think the comp is still a good one.

  15. #359
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    You might see a better Mesoraco if he was playing every day. Grandsl is getting that opportunity on a poor team. Consistent reps make s difference.
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  16. #360
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    There have long been questions about whether or not Grandal could stick at catcher.

    I always said that Alonso was Sean Casey, but he was the Sean Casey who was 40 doubles/25 HR with a .300 average. Of course that changes when you put him in Petco, but I think the comp is still a good one.
    I'm still shaking my head at pinch-running Kip Wells for Alonso. I understand the reasoning, but still...if he's that slow now, how slow is Alonso going to be when he's 30? 33? I can't believe any rational Reds fan thinks Alonso could have stuck in LF.


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