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Thread: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

  1. #631
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Calling Votto "selfish" feels a bit ridiculous and discounting of everything he contributes to the team.

    If you are one to put on heavy tunnel-vision blinders inside of an over-simplified, zero-context vacuum, maybe you can hyper-focus on one speculative instance where Joey Votto could have possibly MAYBE been acting in his best interests but, even then, sometimes the best interest of your most contributing franchise player, who has previously shown zero distracting bravado or self-absorbed immature behavior, can be in your own interest as a team.

    So in short, I struggle to even fathom a situation where I'd say "Joey Votto is selfish" without a hint of irony or sarcasm.
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  3. #632
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    They are bothered by it because Votto is "our guy".
    Oh please. I'm bothered because you are denegrating someone's character based on a conversation you assumed happened. That isn't fair, even if it was Yadier Molina, whom I loathe, being called "selfish."
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  5. #633
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    We should all expect selfishness from someone who drinks fancy coffee.
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  7. #634
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I'm not following. You have a stud hitter and gold glove 1st baseman just entering the prime of his career and a guy who doesn't even play a very good 1b in the minors, blocked. So its natural to assume that they ask one of the top players in the game to make a dramatic position change to accomodate a blocked minor leaguer?

    I'd be more of the mind it wasn't even brought up to Votto with the current regime. Now, if we're talking the O'Brien or Bowden years, then maybe, there were a lot of dumb ideas floating around back then. But I'd have to give the current management team more credit for not even asking their stud in the name of "for the good of the team" to move to the outfield.
    The Reds started playing Alonso in left in the middle of 2010. Votto had yet to win a gold glove. Not that it matters. The Reds certainly had the idea at some point that they wanted Joey Votto and Yonder Alonso in the same line up. That is why Alonso wound up in left field despite the disaster that it was. So, the question then becomes what is the best configuration: An athletic player in left and a non-athletic player at first, or a non-athletic player in left and an athletic player at first? I can't imagine any scenario where they decided without asking Votto that playing the far more unathletic guy in left field was a better option.

  8. #635
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Oh please. I'm bothered because you are denegrating someone's character based on a conversation you assumed happened. That isn't fair, even if it was Yadier Molina, whom I loathe, being called "selfish."
    Denigrating his character?

    Come on now. I have met Joey Votto a few times. He seems like a good dude. Shy, but there is nothing wrong with that. I just happen to believe he made a selfish choice, if he was indeed asked to move to left field and said no. It happens. He isn't the only guy to do it (as I laid out in a previous post).

  9. #636
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Denigrating his character?

    Come on now. I have met Joey Votto a few times. He seems like a good dude. Shy, but there is nothing wrong with that. I just happen to believe he made a selfish choice, if he was indeed asked to move to left field and said no. It happens. He isn't the only guy to do it (as I laid out in a previous post).
    "You are selfish, you would not do what is best for the team, but were most concerned about yourself, because I assume you were asked to move to left field so Yonder could play first." Sounds like an attack on the other person's character to me. I'm guessing if you had that conversation with Votto, he'd be offended and feel like his character was attacked, using the reasonable person test.
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  10. #637
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    "You are selfish, you would not do what is best for the team, but were most concerned about yourself, because I assume you were asked to move to left field so Yonder could play first." Sounds like an attack on the other person's character to me. I'm guessing if you had that conversation with Votto, he'd be offended and feel like his character was attacked, using the reasonable person test.
    I guess we can look at it that way.

    I certainly wouldn't approach him with that exact quote though. But I certainly would ask him if he was asked and then asked a question as to how playing someone much worse suited for left field, a more important defensive position, was better for the team.

    Shin-Soo Choo was asked to play another position for the best option of the team. If he had said no, I am only playing right field, then what? Would people not have questioned his commitment to the Reds. Who was it, Edgar Renteria? who was signed to be a utility guy but said he was only going to play shortstop? People ripped him apart for it. Why is this different? Because Joey Votto can hit the heck out of the baseball? Why should that have anything to do with it?

  11. #638
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds started playing Alonso in left in the middle of 2010. Votto had yet to win a gold glove. Not that it matters. The Reds certainly had the idea at some point that they wanted Joey Votto and Yonder Alonso in the same line up. That is why Alonso wound up in left field despite the disaster that it was. So, the question then becomes what is the best configuration: An athletic player in left and a non-athletic player at first, or a non-athletic player in left and an athletic player at first? I can't imagine any scenario where they decided without asking Votto that playing the far more unathletic guy in left field was a better option.
    1) The Reds didn't need Votto to win a GG to know he was an elite defender. That was crystal clear before 2010 ever started.

    2) I would not assume the Reds actually wanted Votto and Alonso in the same lineup. They gave the tires a kick on having Alonso play LF, but it's entirely possible they decided he didn't have enough bat for 1B and was incapable of playing LF and that he never held much of a spot in the team's long-term thinking. Trying him in LF might have been nothing more than seeing if there was any point to keeping him around.

    3) You're asking the wrong question in terms of best configuration, IMO. Mine would be, make the better player shift or the lesser player shift? I make the lesser player shift. And if he can't then I replace him with someone who can do the job.

    4) I'm with traderumor on this. My guess is the team brass shot down the idea before it ever got to Votto, largely for the reasons I just mentioned. I doubt Alonso ever impressed management enough to seriously entertain the notion of moving Votto.
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  13. #639
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds started playing Alonso in left in the middle of 2010. Votto had yet to win a gold glove. Not that it matters. The Reds certainly had the idea at some point that they wanted Joey Votto and Yonder Alonso in the same line up. That is why Alonso wound up in left field despite the disaster that it was. So, the question then becomes what is the best configuration: An athletic player in left and a non-athletic player at first, or a non-athletic player in left and an athletic player at first? I can't imagine any scenario where they decided without asking Votto that playing the far more unathletic guy in left field was a better option.
    I'd hope the players are playing where they are told to play and that management is not running this type of stuff by them until they've gotten to the point of decision.

    As M2 already stated, it most likely never got past the management discussion phase, so throwing crap at the wall in the ears of the players would only serve to get them worrying about stuff that they shouldn't be worrying about.

    You approach Votto with "hey, we've been thinking about moving you to left because we think you might be better out there than Alonso" and he starts wondering about the competency of his leaders and worrying about making this decision. And he'd be right, because that would be poor management of the situation.
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  14. #640
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    This seems like a funny argument to be having because both sides are really just operating on supposition.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  16. #641
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    I suppose you could argue all day and night but does it even matter at this point?

  17. #642
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Asking Jeter to move for the world's greatest SS and asking The world's greatest 1b to move for a minor leaguer are pretty different things.

  18. #643
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Asking Jeter to move for the world's greatest SS and asking The world's greatest 1b to move for a minor leaguer are pretty different things.
    Not to mention that what the Yankees were figuring is which one would be able to stick at SS longer. I'd say they chose correctly.
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  19. #644
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I think many are bothered by you labeling Votto "selfish".

    If your employer wanted to to move to Bugtussel "for the good of the company" and you refused, are you "selfish"? If they wanted you to to manange a different group of people (a group you dispised) "for the good of the company" are you being selfish?

    Just because a player/employee doesn't do exactly what may be in the best interests of their organization doesn't mean they deserve a label of "selfish". You are entitled to weigh the interest of your organization with your own personal interests.

    And I don't recall that it's settled in stone that Votto was actually and formally asked to move to LF, it was just speculated that he might have been.
    Apples and oranges indeed. One person's effect on maintaining a profitable corporation and one athlete, who represents (essentially) 1/9 of his team, contributing to its wins an losses are starkly different things. If you can't see that, then I should just bow out of this conversation now. You can't compare million dollar athletes playing a game to one of us at our jobs because the similarities begin and end with the fact that we're both emplyed.

    I agree with Doug that the Latos trade is one of the best moves this organization has ever made, but assuming Votto balked at moving to LF, it was selfish. This would have almost certainly been a better baseball team in 2010-11 with both Votto and Alonso in the everyday lineup. Cal Ripken knew that was the case when the O's asked him to move to 3rd, and they had a couple seasons when they almost made the World Series.
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  20. #645
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    There are scenarios where Votto refusing the move would be selfish, sure. But we don't really know all that happened and to state he was selfish as fact is outrageous.


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