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Thread: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

  1. #646
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Fair point, but I'm still happy Votto wasn't shifted to play Alonso at 1B. Like I said, whoever put the brakes on that idea is a personal hero of mine.

    As an aside, Alonso always was trade bait. It wasn't if so much as when with him. Getting Latos was just fabulous execution of an inevitable transaction.
    And that is another reason I'm in favor of drafting B.P.A. rather than for need. Even if a player is blocked, you can use those assets to acquire a more pressing need later. I say draft for the players that are most likely to develop or have the highest upside. Worry about the future in the future.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  4. #647
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    In both corporations and baseball, you rely on individuals to do their jobs successfully. Puffy's example was perfectly on point. Baseball players are like employees. They are paid to do a job and the company's job hinges on the ability of each person to function.

    A player, or an employee for that matter, might not want to change position for reasons other than selfishness. Sometimes they might not be comfortable with a new position. They might not feel they'll best serve a company in a new spot. And let's be honest, study after study has shown that happy people are more productive people. The psychological effects of what a person is comfortable with should not be overlooked.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    After a recent hot streak Drew Stubbs is up to .284/.340/.420 on the season with 4 SB. A .383 BABIP will bring his average back down to career norms, but it's good to see Drew not completely flailing in Cleveland. He's been hitting either 8th or 9th in the Tribe lineup playing a mix of CF and RF.

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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    And that is another reason I'm in favor of drafting B.P.A. rather than for need. Even if a player is blocked, you can use those assets to acquire a more pressing need later. I say draft for the players that are most likely to develop or have the highest upside. Worry about the future in the future.
    When we have a GM that we fully trust to execute such trades (like we do now with Jocketty), I'd completely agree. When Dan O'Brien was at the helm, I'd say we had to be a bit more judicious. That guy would trade an All-Star 1B for a pitcher like Dave Williams. Or even worse, he'd do nothing when obvious moves needed to be made.
    Go BLUE!!!

  7. #650
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    When we have a GM that we fully trust to execute such trades (like we do now with Jocketty), I'd completely agree. When Dan O'Brien was at the helm, I'd say we had to be a bit more judicious. That guy would trade an All-Star 1B for a pitcher like Dave Williams. Or even worse, he'd do nothing when obvious moves needed to be made.
    Before the start of the 2008 season you were poised to trade Votto, Bailey and others for Bedard.

    This isnt a dig but rather just an acknowledgement that GMing and predicting the futures of players is hard.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    That guy would trade an All-Star 1B for a pitcher like Dave Williams. Or even worse, he'd do nothing when obvious moves needed to be made.
    ...well not if the all star is today's version of Joey Votto, but if it was the 31 year old version of Sean Casey who was powerless and slower than syrup in February then it wouldn't be that bad a trade.

    Look, Dave Williams didn't work out as a red. Many of us knew the chances that he would be valuable were slim. I suspect Dan O knew that Dave Williams was about as valuable as a bag of balls. All that said, that's what the 31 year old Sean Casey was worth.

    Nice guy. Really Nice Guy. Never a GOOD major league firstbaseman. If Sean Casey is the caliber of first baseman it takes to make your all star team, it means your league is pretty terrible. That doesn't make him good. You can say the injuries did it or the weight or whatever, but the results are the results.

    Yes, The Reds got stuck giving Dave Williams 1.5 million dollars and 8 terrible starts. The Pirates got stuck giving Sean Casey 4 million dollars and 250 at bats before flipping him for a relief pitcher who put up a 9.00 lifetime ERA and the Pirates were glad to make the flip because it left the Tigers on the hook for the other 4 million dollars that Casey was due to be paid.

    Nice guy, but he had a fork in him. Both teams that traded Casey away during the end of his career improved their own bottom line by making the trade.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

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  10. #652
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    When we have a GM that we fully trust to execute such trades (like we do now with Jocketty), I'd completely agree. When Dan O'Brien was at the helm, I'd say we had to be a bit more judicious. That guy would trade an All-Star 1B for a pitcher like Dave Williams. Or even worse, he'd do nothing when obvious moves needed to be made.
    I don't get the knocking of the deal of Casey for Williams. I never thought that Williams would be successful but if not for the clueless front office in Pittsburgh, the Reds would have been stuck paying Casey's crazy money. Unloading Casey opened up 1B which was later filled more economically and more productively by the Hatteberg/Aurilia platoon. Dealing Casey wasn't O'Brien's problem, it was the deals for ERic Milton and Ramon Ortiz that are his horrible legacy, I'm guessing that was at the guidance of ownership. Moving that money off the books may have paved the way for adding a guy like Arroyo in Spring Training.

    Casey was an expensive, pudgy, judy hitter who produced at 1B like a decent middle infielder might, He had just had his age 30 season and the handwriting was on the wall. Getting Casey off the books was one of O'Brien's better moves IMO.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  12. #653
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitri View Post
    After a recent hot streak Drew Stubbs is up to .284/.340/.420 on the season with 4 SB. A .383 BABIP will bring his average back down to career norms, but it's good to see Drew not completely flailing in Cleveland. He's been hitting either 8th or 9th in the Tribe lineup playing a mix of CF and RF.
    hitting coach?
    there's nothing like bowling a 300 game! 13 now and retired.


    Ricky henderson has a higher OBP than C. patterson and he's retired. C. Trent 6-14-2008

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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by toledodan View Post
    hitting coach?
    To put it in a little perspective, he went 9 for 13 in the 3 days before that post (now 10 for 17 in his last 4 games). That incredible hot streak put him at .761 OPS. So do you think he is more of the hitter like these last 4 games or all the prior games where his OPS was .579?

    He had a 7 for 13, 7 for 15, 5 for 11, and 5 for 13 three game stretches last season. He goes through hot streaks for short periods and then does absolutely nothing for very long stretches. It's what Stubbs does. We shall see if his recent hot streak is the same old thing or something he can finally sustain.

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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    ...well not if the all star is today's version of Joey Votto, but if it was the 31 year old version of Sean Casey who was powerless and slower than syrup in February then it wouldn't be that bad a trade.

    Look, Dave Williams didn't work out as a red. Many of us knew the chances that he would be valuable were slim. I suspect Dan O knew that Dave Williams was about as valuable as a bag of balls. All that said, that's what the 31 year old Sean Casey was worth.

    Nice guy. Really Nice Guy. Never a GOOD major league firstbaseman. If Sean Casey is the caliber of first baseman it takes to make your all star team, it means your league is pretty terrible. That doesn't make him good. You can say the injuries did it or the weight or whatever, but the results are the results.

    Yes, The Reds got stuck giving Dave Williams 1.5 million dollars and 8 terrible starts. The Pirates got stuck giving Sean Casey 4 million dollars and 250 at bats before flipping him for a relief pitcher who put up a 9.00 lifetime ERA and the Pirates were glad to make the flip because it left the Tigers on the hook for the other 4 million dollars that Casey was due to be paid.

    Nice guy, but he had a fork in him. Both teams that traded Casey away during the end of his career improved their own bottom line by making the trade.
    Sean Casey was one year removed from a year where he hit .324/.381/.524 with 24 HR and 99 RBI. I'd say that makes the All-Star team in any league, in just about any year. The following year (his last as a Red), he hit .312/.371/.423. Not great numbers for a 1B but nothing terrible either. Dave Williams was a horrible pitcher, period.

    When all was said and done, Sean Casey had an .834 OPS as a Cincinnati Red. That is significantly better than our very own Jay Bruce has been career to date.

    Getting back on point (and thread relevent), my point was not to lament trading Sean Casey, but to point out that Dan O'Brien was a horrible GM, especially when it came to trades and free agency. When you have a horrible GM, it is a lot more difficult to blindly trust your Front Office to draft the best available player and convert weaknesses into strengths via the trade market.
    Last edited by Benihana; 05-04-2013 at 06:53 PM.
    Go BLUE!!!

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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I don't get the knocking of the deal of Casey for Williams. I never thought that Williams would be successful but if not for the clueless front office in Pittsburgh, the Reds would have been stuck paying Casey's crazy money. Unloading Casey opened up 1B which was later filled more economically and more productively by the Hatteberg/Aurilia platoon. Dealing Casey wasn't O'Brien's problem, it was the deals for ERic Milton and Ramon Ortiz that are his horrible legacy, I'm guessing that was at the guidance of ownership. Moving that money off the books may have paved the way for adding a guy like Arroyo in Spring Training.

    Casey was an expensive, pudgy, judy hitter who produced at 1B like a decent middle infielder might, He had just had his age 30 season and the handwriting was on the wall. Getting Casey off the books was one of O'Brien's better moves IMO.

    I think a bucket of balls and fungo bat would have netted us more than Williams did. He had a losing record and plus 7 ERA. ... seriously ...

  17. #657
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I don't get the knocking of the deal of Casey for Williams. I never thought that Williams would be successful but if not for the clueless front office in Pittsburgh, the Reds would have been stuck paying Casey's crazy money. Unloading Casey opened up 1B which was later filled more economically and more productively by the Hatteberg/Aurilia platoon. Dealing Casey wasn't O'Brien's problem, it was the deals for ERic Milton and Ramon Ortiz that are his horrible legacy, I'm guessing that was at the guidance of ownership. Moving that money off the books may have paved the way for adding a guy like Arroyo in Spring Training.

    Casey was an expensive, pudgy, judy hitter who produced at 1B like a decent middle infielder might, He had just had his age 30 season and the handwriting was on the wall. Getting Casey off the books was one of O'Brien's better moves IMO.
    Um, what?

    His career line with the Reds was .305/.371/.463/.834. I'm not saying moving him was a bad idea, because Hatteberg posted similar numbers for much cheaper, but I think you're selling Casey short.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    A little bit off topic, but do you guys think that Jesse Winker profiles more like Pete Rose or is he just the next Hal Morris??

  18. #658
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Casey's last year with the Reds netted a .423 SLG. That is like a decent middle infielder.

  19. #659
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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Um, what?

    His career line with the Reds was .305/.371/.463/.834. I'm not saying moving him was a bad idea, because Hatteberg posted similar numbers for much cheaper, but I think you're selling Casey short.
    2005 OPS+ was equal to his career 109. Seriously a 1B should be a lot farther above 100 than that. 2003 was 102, 2002 was 81, 2001 was 108, 1998 was 104. He had good seasons in 1999 and 2000 and a brief resurgence in 2004, but he clearly wasn't that guy. A decent 2B could give you most of those seasons. Even a decent SS would have been better than Casey in 2002 and 2003.

    He certainly proved to be a part-timer after the deal. O'Brien made the right call, but people were remembering 1999 when he did it. There was no way they were going to get a good player and have some one take his money off the Reds hands. The Reds were stuck taking Williams $1.5 Million from the Pirates just to move him at all. Even as a home town hero, the Pirates quickly wised up and moved him to the first team that would pay the rest of his deal for a Minor League Reliever.

    Seeing how Casey performed after the deal, I don't see how anyone can criticize the Reds for moving him off the books in whatever way they could.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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    Re: Tracking - Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, Boxberger, Sappelt, Wood, Torreyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Sean Casey was one year removed from a year where he hit .324/.381/.524 with 24 HR and 99 RBI. I'd say that makes the All-Star team in any league, in just about any year. The following year (his last as a Red), he hit .312/.371/.423. Not great numbers for a 1B but nothing terrible either.
    Right. How did Casey do ....after ....the trade. The fact that Casey was very valuable in 2004 and essentially valueless after 2005 and Dan O'Brien recognized it kind of makes the rest of your post suspect.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010


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