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Thread: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

  1. #106
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    I am very impressed with Hoover. Francisco is still very young, has a ton of power in his left-handed bat and has a good chance to end up being a good player and I would like to have him back with the Reds, but so far the Reds got the better end of the deal.

    I wonder if the Braves would have been willing to trade Hoover for Frazier? Maybe they asked for Frazier but Jocketty said "Nope, its Francisco or no deal." Maybe Francisco is the guy the Braves preferred all along. Who knows? In hindsight it is obvious that Frazier is better than Francisco, but it wasn't so obvious back when the trade was made. Frazier wasn't even in the major leagues yet.


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  3. #107
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    You guys can tell the future better than me.

    I'll wait and see.
    I'll tell you the future:

    Francisco will hit some really, really long fly balls while making lots of outs.

    I'm very happy it'll be in some other uniform.
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  4. #108
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I am very impressed with Hoover. Francisco is still very young, has a ton of power in his left-handed bat and has a good chance to end up being a good player and I would like to have him back with the Reds, but so far the Reds got the better end of the deal.

    I wonder if the Braves would have been willing to trade Hoover for Frazier? Maybe they asked for Frazier but Jocketty said "Nope, its Francisco or no deal." Maybe Francisco is the guy the Braves preferred all along. Who knows? In hindsight it is obvious that Frazier is better than Francisco, but it wasn't so obvious back when the trade was made. Frazier wasn't even in the major leagues yet.
    Frazier had options left, Francisco did not. That's the only reason he was availalble.

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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I didn't miss the point, it's still premature.

    Over time we'll see how Francisco does, how Frazier does, how Hoover does. It may well be that you're right.

    But I wouldn't judge it yet. Francisco may get a big opportunity with Chipper retiring.

    Wouldn't judge a trade of young players based on less than a season.
    The point you missed is that Francisco was out of options, was not a fit for our roster, and needed to be traded for whatever Walt could get.

    Everyone knew that.

    The fact Walt got any warm body for him was good.

    The fact he might have gotten our future closer is amazing.

  6. #110
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    The point you missed is that Francisco was out of options, was not a fit for our roster, and needed to be traded for whatever Walt could get.

    Everyone knew that.

    The fact Walt got any warm body for him was good.

    The fact he might have gotten our future closer is amazing.
    Not an accurate description of what happened at all, but I'm not going to debate with someone so nasty in tone.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-13-2012 at 11:24 PM.

  7. #111
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    There are a lot of Franciscos that have proven themselves as cautionary tales throughout the course of minor league baseball.

    I'll not lose any sleep over the very small chance he actually learns there's a life outside the batter's box
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  8. #112
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    There are a lot of Franciscos that have proven themselves as cautionary tales throughout the course of minor league baseball.

    I'll not lose any sleep over the very small chance he actually learns there's a life outside the batter's box
    Wily Mo Pena comes to mind. And if my memory serves me right Wily Mo had quite a bit MORE success at the big league level early on than Francisco has.
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  9. #113
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Wily Mo Pena comes to mind. And if my memory serves me right Wily Mo had quite a bit MORE success at the big league level early on than Francisco has.
    Braves seem reasonably happy with Francisco according to a recent press report in August. He admits he's still not in the best shape and claims he's committed to getting there. He's played quite a bit in a reserve role.

    Of course, he's not WMP because Francisco is a lefty hitter and as a platoon guy will play far more often. WMP was a righty with a big split who really was only useful against lefties.

    Francisco's big challenge is learning to hit lefties better. If he doesn't, he'll be a platooner which limits him.

    Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see him break out with a big home run season in the next few years.

    Todd Frazier seems like a more sound hitter at this point, both have defensive issues, but I do think Francisco can ultimately be more of an impact hitter - possibly. As for Hoover, he's looked great so far but it's much too early to reach final conclusions on this trade.

  10. #114
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Not an accurate description of what happened at all, but I'm not going to debate with someone so nasty in tone.
    Tone or not, that's exactly how I remember things going down. A typical late spring training move in a roster crunch for a team with 3 third basemen. We could never viably keep all 3.

  11. #115
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Tone or not, that's exactly how I remember things going down. A typical late spring training move in a roster crunch for a team with 3 third basemen. We could never viably keep all 3.
    It's just not what happened. It wasn't a typical roster crunch. Nor was Francisco a poor fit, as the earlier post said.

    Francisco was a very good fit for the Reds, had been in their plans in 2011 (but got injured) and was in their plans in 2012. They have said as much, he was a needed lefty bat, played third a position of need.

    But he came in to camp overweight and didn't rehab his injury well. So he fell out of favor with the Reds.

    Nobody knows if they would have kept him if he had options. Seemed to me they were fed up with him because of his failure to get in shape.

    They didn't trade him in a roster crunch, which implies it was trade him or waive him. The Braves were happy to get him, and have said as much, and gave up a pretty good prospect to get him.

    Nor was Frazier his direct replacement. JF was traded. Frazier went to AAA. Injuries brought Frazier back and to his credit he made good.

    Francisco was not some cast off but a pretty valuable commodity who fell out of favor with the Reds. Walt got a good return for him because he had value. He still could have a good future because he has some great attributes. He does have some deficiencies to overcome, maybe he will, maybe he won't.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-14-2012 at 12:15 AM.

  12. #116
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Thinking about this particular trade makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  13. #117
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    It's just not what happened. It wasn't a typical roster crunch. Nor was Francisco a poor fit, as the earlier post said.

    Francisco was a very good fit for the Reds, had been in their plans in 2011 (but got injured) and was in their plans in 2012. They have said as much, he was a needed lefty bat, played third a position of need.

    But he came in to camp overweight and didn't rehab his injury well. So he fell out of favor with the Reds.

    Nobody knows if they would have kept him if he had options. Seemed to me they were fed up with him because of his failure to get in shape.

    They didn't trade him in a roster crunch, which implies it was trade him or waive him. The Braves were happy to get him, and have said as much, and gave up a pretty good prospect to get him.

    Nor was Frazier his direct replacement. JF was traded. Frazier went to AAA. Injuries brought Frazier back and to his credit he made good.

    Francisco was not some cast off but a pretty valuable commodity who fell out of favor with the Reds. Walt got a good return for him because he had value. He still could have a good future because he has some great attributes. He does have some deficiencies to overcome, maybe he will, maybe he won't.
    Francisco wasn't a fit for Cincinnati. The Reds were looking for versatile, defensive players and he didn't fit the bill. And with Frazier there, it made no sense to keep Francisco around.

    His career .309 OBP certainly doesn't help matters either.
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  14. #118
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Hoover is a find, no doubt and maybe a future closer, but on a team badly in need of offense, regardless of popular opinion, a .309 OBP is mighty fine. With Rolen and Frazier around, Francisco was expendable. This will all play out in time. If Rolen retires, we might be rethinking this. But, it was a good deal.
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  15. #119
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    I have to say that I was against the deal at the time but think its worked out great so far. I remember it more the way KC describes than what others are saying. The Reds could have used a lefty bat and the lack of one has been a problem most of the year. Frazier has far exceeded expectations and the Reds would probably not be where they are without him producing in a big way when Rolen and Votto went down. Hoover looks promising, but judging a young pitcher on such few major league innings is pretty premature. I hope he becomes the late inning guy he looks to be and its not just a "new to the big leagues" thing. I was pretty skeptical at the time of the deal. Glad I was wrong.

    Good deal by Walt. Kudos to him. But lets not pretend that it couldn't change in the future as Francisco matures. I wish there was a way the Reds could have added Hoover, kept Frazier and still had Francisco. Its nice that the Reds have enough talent to deal off guys for promising youngsters instead of looking for retrreads to fill the roster.
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  16. #120
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    From the Talking Chop site:

    http://www.talkingchop.com/2012/4/1/...rom-reds-trade

    Francisco became available in part because he is out of minor league options. In Hoover, the Braves give up a guy who could be a middle of the rotation workhorse or a reliable setup man in the bullpen. It is unclear how the Reds will use him.
    Here was some analysis at the time from an Atlanta source.
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