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Thread: Is Cueto really an ace?

  1. #16
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Is Cueto an ace?

    Ask me at the end of the 2012 season.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    I'd sure love for him to be considered one by all of baseball... I'm tired of sitting on this low number Bowman Chrome RC refractors...
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  4. #18
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    I am with Rick.... he isn't even close. He is a middle of the rotation starter who had some very good luck that made his numbers look better than his performance actually was or should be moving forward without improvement on his behalf.

    I have said it a few times in the last week, but I feel that I could make a solid argument that Cueto might be the Reds 4th best starter behind Latos, Leake and Bailey. Of course I could also make a solid argument he is the 2nd best behind Latos, but that is kind of the point. No one is thinking Bailey or Leake are anything close to Aces, but Cueto, aside from his ERA in one season, hasn't shown he is able to really be separated from those two guys.

  5. #19
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    He's a strong number 3. Ace is a term used too loosely. There are maybe 15, maybe less in all of the majors.

    BTW - Latos is a number 2, Arroyo a strong 4, Leake a 4. Chapman and Bailey are question marks. There are no number 5s IMO. Just question marks who either move up the scale or fade away.


    This is the season with the least question marks penciled into the rotation since the early 60s IMO.
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    There's a lot of wishcasting going on when folks look at the local team.

    How many solid major leaguers are in the reds lineup....Votto, Phillips, Bruce and....and that's really it isn't it? Everybody else has questions around them. Can Cozart do it all year long? Can Stubbs cash in on his tools? Can Rolen stay healthy?

    The Bullpen looked great and then the injuries hit.....How many guys down there are going to be able to stay healthy and good?

    Starters....It's quite possible that Bronson Arroyo will be the best starter this team has over the course of the season. Say that again with a straight face....Yeah, I couldn't either.

    I HOPE they win 100 games and then 12 more in the post season. That would be fine with me, but when you get past the happy talk and all, there are some serious warts on this lineup.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  7. #21
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    There's a lot of wishcasting going on when folks look at the local team.

    How many solid major leaguers are in the reds lineup....Votto, Phillips, Bruce and....and that's really it isn't it? Everybody else has questions around them. Can Cozart do it all year long? Can Stubbs cash in on his tools? Can Rolen stay healthy?

    The Bullpen looked great and then the injuries hit.....How many guys down there are going to be able to stay healthy and good?

    Starters....It's quite possible that Bronson Arroyo will be the best starter this team has over the course of the season. Say that again with a straight face....Yeah, I couldn't either.

    I HOPE they win 100 games and then 12 more in the post season. That would be fine with me, but when you get past the happy talk and all, there are some serious warts on this lineup.
    I expect 3-5 wins from Hanigan/Mesoraco. I think we'll see 3+ wins from Stubbs. Far from warts IMHO.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  8. #22
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what defines an "ace" so it's hard to say. If I had to guess, I'd say it would mean one of the 30 best starters in baseball.

    If this is the definition, I'd have to say no, he's not.

    If the definition of "ace" is your team's best starter, I'd have to say Latos is better than Cueto.

    To me, Cueto is a slightly better than league average to league average starting pitcher. It will be interesting to see how he does this year.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  9. #23
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    If all we have are No. 2 and 3 starters, the season will never start.

    Is he a stopper? Can we count on him to break a losing streak? Can we count on him for eight innings or more when the bullpen is fried? Is he the guy you want starting twice in a postseason series?

    My answer would be: Not yet. But I think he's underrated.

  10. #24
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    If all we have are No. 2 and 3 starters, the season will never start.

    Is he a stopper? Can we count on him to break a losing streak? Can we count on him for eight innings or more when the bullpen is fried? Is he the guy you want starting twice in a postseason series?

    My answer would be: Not yet. But I think he's underrated.

  11. #25
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    An ace is, by its very definition, one of the top 30 starters in baseball. Last season, Cueto was an ace, as he was one of those top 30. (Though his inning workload put him in the last part of that particular group, IMO.)

    Latos is an entirely different argument.
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    For me, an ace is a pitcher with whom I feel comfortable pitching game 1 of a playoff series.

    Last season, Cueto fit that description. We'll see if he does this year as well. Latos definitely fits that description this year.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  13. #27
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    We shall see...

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  14. #28
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    I don't know if I agree. Certainly, someone with a K/9 over 7 is much more likely to be an ace than someone below that threshold, but guys like Steve Carlton, Juan Marichal, Jim Palmer and Don Sutton all reached the Hall of Fame, and arguably "ace" status, while rarely having a K/9 over 7. More recently, Tom Glavine is a pitcher that wasn't close to a K/9 of over 7 for his career, but still was an arguable ace for much of it.

    I'd also add that I don't think Cueto is an "ace."
    In the modern game, the ability to miss bats is pretty important. While there are exceptions, it is rare for guys with K/9 under 7 to sustain success, and therefore reach "ace" status. Even guys like Roy Halladay and Chris Carpenter achieved new levels of success after figuring out how to strike out batters at a higher rate. Cueto's K/9 is headed in the wrong direction.
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  15. #29
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    In the modern game, the ability to miss bats is pretty important. While there are exceptions, it is rare for guys with K/9 under 7 to sustain success, and therefore reach "ace" status. Even guys like Roy Halladay and Chris Carpenter achieved new levels of success after figuring out how to strike out batters at a higher rate. Cueto's K/9 is headed in the wrong direction.
    I think it's too early to be having this discussion. Cueto just put it together. He obviously worked on relying on his defense, something Volquez wouldn't do. Pitch to contact.

    But Cueto can get that K when he needs too. But he is trying to go 7+ innings. The stronger he gets, the more K's you will see.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  16. #30
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I think it's too early to be having this discussion. Cueto just put it together. He obviously worked on relying on his defense, something Volquez wouldn't do. Pitch to contact.

    But Cueto can get that K when he needs too. But he is trying to go 7+ innings. The stronger he gets, the more K's you will see.
    Gaah! Fingernails on a chalkboard.

    Let's hope he's able to go the Roy Halladay route and boost that K rate.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 04-05-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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