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Thread: Is Cueto really an ace?

  1. #31
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    In the modern game, the ability to miss bats is pretty important. While there are exceptions, it is rare for guys with K/9 under 7 to sustain success, and therefore reach "ace" status. Even guys like Roy Halladay and Chris Carpenter achieved new levels of success after figuring out how to strike out batters at a higher rate. Cueto's K/9 is headed in the wrong direction.
    I agree it's the exception more than the rule, but that doesn't mean Cueto or anyone else has to have a K/9 over 7 to be an ace. While "ace" is an amorphous term, in recent years, Tim Hudson put up six seasons of 5+ WAR baseball with a K/9 under 7; Brandon Webb won a Cy Young and put up a 7 WAR season with a K/9 under 7; Derek Lowe put up a 6 WAR season with a K/9 under 7.

    I really don't disagree with anything you say other than that to even look at Cueto as an "ace" (or anyone for that matter), he has to have a K/9 over 7. In 2008, he had a K/9 well over 7, but everything points to the fact that he's a better pitcher today.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

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  3. #32
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    A K-rate over 7 isn't the only criteria, and it doesn't guarantee success. But part of being considered an "ace" in the modern game is having dominant stuff that hitters can't touch. That kind of stuff usually manifests itself in a high K-rate.
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  4. #33
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I think it's too early to be having this discussion. Cueto just put it together. He obviously worked on relying on his defense, something Volquez wouldn't do. Pitch to contact.

    But Cueto can get that K when he needs too. But he is trying to go 7+ innings. The stronger he gets, the more K's you will see.
    Well, clearly not for some of us -- since we are effectively having that discussion right now. I agree with you, though, that we will know a lot more about Cueto after we gather a bit more information.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  5. #34
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    A K-rate over 7 isn't the only criteria, and it doesn't guarantee success. But part of being considered an "ace" in the modern game is having dominant stuff that hitters can't touch. That kind of stuff usually manifests itself in a high K-rate.
    I guess I don't see anything particularly unique about the modern game which suggests that a guy can't be an ace with a K/9 under 7. Out of the ordinary? Yeah, sure. Impossible or even improbable? Not really.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  6. #35
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    I guess I don't see anything particularly unique about the modern game which suggests that a guy can't be an ace with a K/9 under 7. Out of the ordinary? Yeah, sure. Impossible or even improbable? Not really.
    Modern game has fewer "weak bats" in the line up. In todays game, most of the guys in the line up can take you deep. It hasn't been like that for all that long, so the strikeout is more important today than ever before.

  7. #36
    Future Fame of Holler WildcatFan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Is Cueto really an ace?
    Yes.
    "I never argue with people who say baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn't. And that's what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski

  8. #37
    Member Captain Hook's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Modern game has fewer "weak bats" in the line up. In todays game, most of the guys in the line up can take you deep. It hasn't been like that for all that long, so the strikeout is more important today than ever before.
    I know it's been mentioned but it really does seems like Cueto can get a strikeout when he needs it and today was a good example.Only four K's but all came with runners on and he only allowed 5 to reach through his 7ip.

  9. #38
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Modern game has fewer "weak bats" in the line up. In todays game, most of the guys in the line up can take you deep. It hasn't been like that for all that long, so the strikeout is more important today than ever before.
    HR's are on a decline, down from around 185 per team a season to around 145 per team a season. Still not like it was in the 70's and 80's, when teams were averaging around 105 a season, but K's are becoming less and less important as PED's slowly leave the game.

    With more low scoring games, more defensive minded players will be utilized, leading to more easy outs. It won't be like when a team would have Belanger and Dempsey at the bottom of the lineup, but closer to that then during the steroid era.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  10. #39
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Boom. Yes.

  11. #40
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    He was looking pretty Ace-ish to me today.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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  12. #41
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    HR's are on a decline, down from around 185 per team a season to around 145 per team a season. Still not like it was in the 70's and 80's, when teams were averaging around 105 a season, but K's are becoming less and less important as PED's slowly leave the game.

    With more low scoring games, more defensive minded players will be utilized, leading to more easy outs. It won't be like when a team would have Belanger and Dempsey at the bottom of the lineup, but closer to that then during the steroid era.
    This was my thought when I said I don't see any compelling reason why K/9 is more important now than ever.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  13. #42
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    I think strikeouts are only one part of the equation of being an 'ace.' Not walking guys and keeping the ball down are the other major parts of it. He does all three really well.

    Give me a guy that strikes out 6.5-7, walks around 2 and has a 1.5-1 GB:FB ratio, and that's pretty close to an ace.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  14. #43
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Somebody has him behind Bailey? LOL.

  15. #44
    Lets Go 'Bird' Hunting The Voice of IH's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    Sheldon must be reading this thread, because he peppered this article.

    http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/mlb/g...382464416-1025
    Hey Sparky! Indian Hill English teachers taught me everything I know!

  16. #45
    Resident optimist OldRightHander's Avatar
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    Re: Is Cueto really an ace?

    I was there, sitting up pretty high, but still he looked darn solid. There were a few at bats where I thought that the hitter just looked foolish and overmatched, even though he managed to put the ball in play. If he pitches like that all year, I like our chances.
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