College Sports

[improbus]

Every time I read and post in a college sports thread, some negative issue in college sports appears. Here are some of them:
The BCS
Paying Players and Amateurism
Recruiting Scandals
One and Done
Bad Behavior by coaches (see Pitino and Petrino)
Whatever happened at Penn State
Money in the system (Boosters, TV Deals, etc...)
Point Shaving scandals (every few years)
NCAA rules and many many more.

I would be interested in getting peoples opinions on these issues as a whole? What is it about college sports that lends itself so much controversy? We've all discussed these issues individually, but what are the greater systemic issues that lead to so much spilled ink (or electrons...)?

[Assembly Hall]

To me, it is all about money. Coaches get outragous salaries, schools rake it in from TV rights and attendence levels, Sports networks make it by televising the events, the list goes on and on. I could go more in depth but I got to go confess my sins!!!!!!!!!

[Roy Tucker]

I agree that its the money and, related to that, amateurism.

There is so much money made by schools and coaches and TV networks, yet the athlete/students get relatively little. Recruiting, point shaving, and gambling issue can arise from that.

And the pressure to win (which is tied to money, winning teams make more money) pushes coaching, recruiting, eligibility, and booster behaviors into bad territory.

I don't see things changing much in the near future. The people that are in power are the ones that make the most money from the system.

[reds1869]

My quick take on these issues:

The BCS Can't stand it, it is inherently unfair.
Paying Players and Amateurism I support a bigger stipend
Recruiting Scandals When the rules are dumb they'll happen
One and Done Can't stand; a result of dumb NBA rules
Bad Behavior by coaches (see Pitino and Petrino)Doesn't bother me
Whatever happened at Penn State Bothers me a lot
Money in the system (Boosters, TV Deals, etc...) Necessary evil
Point Shaving scandals (every few years) Result of athletes feeling cheated financially/wanting their cut of the pie
NCAA rules and many many more. The NCAA causes more problems than it solves


As a big fan of college baseball (an others on here?) I hate the way the NCAA treats "non-revenue sports" and all but guarantees the scandals that cause such righteous indignation.

[improbus]

To me, the main idea is the concept of amateurism itself. This article on the history of amateurism is one of my favorite pieces of the last few years.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...e-sports/8643/

I wonder why we cling to the idea of amateurism so dearly? Why does Cam Newton have the reputation he does amongst college (and non Auburn) fans? Is it the romantic ideal of the "innocence" of pure competition?

To me, the issue is the combination of two things
1) The introduction of massive amounts of money to the institution and the "professionalization" of the operation of the sport. This includes the following:
-Expensive tickets with "donation requirements" to get better ones. That sounds a lot like seat licenses to me.
-Coaches and other athletic officials pay. (visit Columbus and see the difference between Woody Hayes house with the one owned by Jim Tressel).
-The marketing of the sport and in particular, the athletes themselves.
2) The persistent requirement of amateurism.
-Players (I refuse to say "student athlete" every time like the NCAA asks) cannot have outside jobs. That is crazy.
-Many players are only in an institution of higher learning for the sport. That is like saying kids are only in school for the Frats....(oh wait. That may be a bad analogy). But, without their sport, many would not be in the school, either through grades or choice.
-Kids are vilified when the take so much as $100 from a booster when that same booster is cutting massive checks to the university that goes into the coaches or athletic directors pockets.

To me, you either need to embrace the financial model or the amateur model completely. If you want to have all of the elements of professionalism, make it complete. If you want amateur sports, pay the coaches like they do a high school coach and charge the same $6 that it costs to go to a high school game. I'm not sure you can mix the two without enormous consequences and fissures in the system.

[Assembly Hall]

Wow, that was a lot of reading! Good stuff.

[WVRed]

I'm just going to hit these in order:

The BCS

Needs fixed, but can be done with minor tweaking.

Keep the current bowl system intact, but create a four team playoff based on the top four BCS teams (Final Four). The semi-finals can be played New Years Day while the championship follows the week after.

Paying Players and Amateurism

I think paying players happens more than what people think and even by schools you wouldn't think of. The coaches may not be directly involved but there are boosters who can bring down a program.

The players should get a larger stipend. You can point toward getting an education for free, but in todays job market graduating college does not necessarily equate to landing a job in your field. I think it should be set up similar to a COD where the students aren't allowed to touch the money while on campus, but upon graduation you've got a safety net available.

Recruiting Scandals

See the point I made above on how IMO it happens more than people think. Some of the rules are absolutely ludicrous though and need to be changed such as chanting names of recruits at a Midnight Madness.

One and Done

I don't like it, but I'm not against it and I would like to see the NBA adopt the MLB system. You can enter the draft out of HS, but if you elect to attend college, you must wait until your junior year.

OTOH, college today is not the same as college 10 years ago. I mentioned Michael Kidd-Gilchrist in the UK thread as to why he should go pro, but consider with how hard he plays physically that he is very susceptible to injury and needs to get into the league instead of possibly suffering a major injury in college and costing himself millions.

The same opportunities for degrees are available online. I'm taking three e-courses and an Alternative Delivery (once a month) class next semester at a community college here in Parkersburg. I imagine the e-course route is available for students at major colleges as well. I remember where Vince Carter returned to UNC to graduate after leaving early for the draft so it can be done.

Bad Behavior by coaches (see Pitino and Petrino)

The Arkansas situation wouldn't surprise me if one of two things happened:

1. Petrino is fired.
2. Petrino is allowed to keep his job because "he wins" and the AD doesn't sugarcoat it.

If a coach does something embarrassing to the university and in most cases, a flagship school for the state and community, the coach should be fired or asked to resign. If a player does something shady, that player is likely dismissed from the team and loses their scholarship. Coaches are some of the states highest paid employees and should be held to a higher standard.

Whatever happened at Penn State

You can include Syracuse here as well. As an outsider, its obviously deplorable. From somebody living within the State College community though, I'm sure people within the community have different feelings toward Paterno, Sandusky, etc.

I posted this in the Penn State thread before, but there was an area coach here who was banned from coaching in a similar situation. Depending on who you talk to around here though, there are people who get downright defensive when you bring up about this coach and swear that he didn't do what was alleged but that it was all brought about by a disgruntled former player.

What makes the story even more incredulous is that this same coach had a contact with a former Penn State coach who conducted camps here in the area. Some of the players here in Parkersburg went to Penn State during the 1980's. Wanna guess who the coach was?

Jerry Sandusky.

Money in the system (Boosters, TV Deals, etc...)

As reds1869 said, both are necessary evils. TV deals though are ultimately going to go the way of cable networks.

Point Shaving scandals (every few years)

No opinion.

NCAA rules and many many more.

The NCAA is a corrupt and hypocritical organization. They are more interested in making money off their "student athletes" and that made it even sweeter to watch Mark Emmert hand the National Championship trophy to John Calipari last week. I've said before that even if the NCAA ever vacates Kentucky's national championship, the end result is that Kansas still lost and the fans still remember the joy felt after watching their Cats win it for the first time in 14 years.

[Assembly Hall]

Good stuff WVRed. improbus, I completely agree with what you said.

There is plenty of blame to be passed around. NCAA, NBA, NFL, sports networks, and the institutions themselves. The fact of the matter is that I dont know if it can ever be fixed. Everyone that shares in the blame, benefits from the system that is in place and what it has become.

The NCAA hides behind the cloth of righteousness while siphening money off schools and "student-athletes".

The NBA and NFL use the schools for their minor league system. The NBA created the "one and done" with their rules of entering the draft. And although the NFL draft rules seem to be set up right, it also forces kids to go to college that otherwise wouldnt. Both leagues could set up a minor league system.

Sports networks feed off it like buzzards. They hand out big $, because advertisors are standing in line to cut them a check.

The institutions themselves use the cash bonanza to upgrade their facilities. Which isnt limited to athletics, it also goes for libraires and buildings of higher education. They have become dependent on it.

I dont know what the answer is.

[IslandRed]

I wonder why we cling to the idea of amateurism so dearly?

A lot of people don't. I grew up in Kentucky, and as far as many people in the state are concerned, the "University" part of UK is irrelevant. May as well be the State of Kentucky Wildcats. Those people wouldn't care if the players were hired guns. Don't take that as singling out Kentucky, it's the same pretty much everywhere else.

Yet for many others, and I count myself among them, college sports are what they are because they involve, well, college. Real students playing, etc., all of the traditions surrounding the sports and all that. Even though it ultimately doesn't matter what a bunch of 20-year-olds running around on a football field do and I understand the absurdity big-time college sports have become, I'm connected to my alma mater in a way I can never be to a professional team, even one I've followed my whole life like the Reds.

That's why I can't see them ever going to a purely professional model, or having an athletic trade school completely separate from the actual university, as some have suggested over the years. Personally, I'm not hung up on strict amateurism but I draw the line when it comes to them being real students. Divorce the college from college athletics and something will be irretrievably lost.

[WVRed]

The NBA and NFL use the schools for their minor league system. The NBA created the "one and done" with their rules of entering the draft. And although the NFL draft rules seem to be set up right, it also forces kids to go to college that otherwise wouldnt. Both leagues could set up a minor league system.

I agree with you on the NBA. The NFL is a completely different animal.

Kids coming out of high school are not physically (or mentally) able to play at the NFL level. It takes years of development that makes college a necessity. Do you think a top QB prospect coming out of HS could learn a NFL playbook? Or even a Dorial Green-Beckham (top WR prospect and top overall prospect) would be able to handle being hit by a James Harrison or another NFL linebacker?

The problem I have with the NBA's old system of players coming out of HS is that it cheapens the college game. You might get one top 5 prospect who decides to go to college (Carmelo Anthony), and its usually for one year. That's why I've said the MLB model works the best, you have the option to go out of HS, but if not, you have to wait three years before reapplying.

[Assembly Hall]

I agree with you on the NBA. The NFL is a completely different animal.

Kids coming out of high school are not physically (or mentally) able to play at the NFL level. It takes years of development that makes college a necessity. Do you think a top QB prospect coming out of HS could learn a NFL playbook? Or even a Dorial Green-Beckham (top WR prospect and top overall prospect) would be able to handle being hit by a James Harrison or another NFL linebacker?

The problem I have with the NBA's old system of players coming out of HS is that it cheapens the college game. You might get one top 5 prospect who decides to go to college (Carmelo Anthony), and its usually for one year. That's why I've said the MLB model works the best, you have the option to go out of HS, but if not, you have to wait three years before reapplying.

No, I dont. But with all the money the NFL has, they could set up a minor league system. You would still have to be 21(or whatever age they chose) to get to the league. They could have 8-10 teams at different levels(AAA,AA,A). Single A would be for the kids right out of high school and they could "baby" them along. The kids would advance up the ladder as the league saw fit depending on physical and mental toughness. But no one makes it to the "bigs" until they are 21-22. Sounds far fetched, but the NFL could do it.

I think in basketball, the college game has been "cheapened" in general due to guys leaving early period. It aint just "one and done", it also is "two and done". Back 30 years ago it didnt happen that much and was reserved for the truly elite players. Somewhere in the mid to late 80's things started getting out of hand.

[improbus]

There will be an interesting debate over this topic on May 8th. The title of the debate is "Ban College Sports". On the side of banning college football is Buzz Bissinger (the writer of Friday Night Lights) and Malcolm Gladwell (writer of Blink and Outliers) while defending college football will be Jason Whitlock (controversial sports columnist and former college football player) and Tim Green (former NFL player, lawyer, and writer)

http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/debates/

[improbus]

Wait a minute, was Mark Emmert, the head of the NCAA, reading this forum?

http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=7836660

[Assembly Hall]

Wait a minute, was Mark Emmert, the head of the NCAA, reading this forum?

http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=7836660

LOL.......I wonder? I liked what I saw there.