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Thread: The Cincinnati Pitching Arsenal: Repertoire for Every Reds Hurler

  1. #31
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: The Cincinnati Pitching Arsenal: Repertoire for Every Reds Hurler

    Bad data, from sources that don't understand.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  3. #32
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The Cincinnati Pitching Arsenal: Repertoire for Every Reds Hurler

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Bad data, from sources that don't understand.
    The data is solid, the algorithm isn't. The data will tell us what the pitch is. We just need to know how to read the graphs correctly (and in some cases, know the pitcher is throwing XYZ Pitch as every now and again some pitch types can overlap such as different types of fastballs).

  4. #33
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The Cincinnati Pitching Arsenal: Repertoire for Every Reds Hurler

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Bad data, from sources that don't understand.
    Or maybe Homer's pitch doesn't actually do what baseball people know it should?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #34
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: The Cincinnati Pitching Arsenal: Repertoire for Every Reds Hurler

    Whatever
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  6. #35
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: The Cincinnati Pitching Arsenal: Repertoire for Every Reds Hurler

    Thanks for the nice comments guys. I am glad you enjoyed the post. I found the info interesting and I figured you guys would too.

    The data is from PITCHf/x and can be found at various places on the web. Fangraphs is the easiest to use and sort in convenient charts but their data is a little less reliable. There are some other sites that modify the data to make it more accurate. Brooks Baseball has a group that actually charts pitches to help insure the PITCHf/x data is correct. TexasLeaguers is another good site. Joe Lefkowitz has a site that gives you some sorting options that are not available anywhere else.

    The PITCHf/x data is based purely on the movement of the pitches. If a guy throws a pitch that moves within a certain range it will be classified on that basis regardless of the grip or wrist action the pitcher uses. That can cause some pitches to be mis-categorized. A pitching coach would classify a pitch based on the hand grip and wrist motion (how the pitch is thrown), but PITCHf/x is only looking at what the pitch does after it leaves the pitcher's hand. To get around this you can go to Brooks Baseball for clarification. Change-ups in particular can be tricky because they have little movement and because there are so many different grips used by pitchers on change-ups.

    Since RANDY IN INDY brought up the subject I looked it up, Homer Bailey does in fact throw a split-finger pitch that has very little movement and is slower than his fastball, so PITCHf/x labels it a change-up because it fits within their speed and movement criteria for the change-up class. However, Brooks Baseball classifies that pitch as a splitter because they have manually scouted some of his games and have double-checked his grips. Homer Bailey threw 164 splitters in 2011 and does not have a true change-up. I can't edit the original post in this thread anymore, but if I could I would move the change-up rate of 7.5% over to the splitter column.

    Brooks Baseball has also reclassified some of Hector Santiago's pitches as screwballs. They show him as having thrown 40 screwballs in his career. I am guessing they don't break much because PITCHf/x is not picking up their reverse movement.

    I am guessing there is some degree of blurriness to the data. For example, did Sean Marshall really throw .20% 2-seamers and .90% cutters? More likely those were just 4-Seamers with a little extra movement. How many of Marshall's sliders were actually curveballs with extra-sharp movement? I would imagine Marshall has several different grips and wrist actions for his excellent sliders/curves, each one slightly different from the others. Depending on the playing situation and conditions he may need to adjust his technique a little bit. Would the PITCHf/x system pick up the difference? No, I doubt it. But the tool is very useful and gives us a clearer picture of what makes each pitcher unique in baseball.


    PITCHf/x is a pitch tracking system, created by Sportvision, and is installed in every MLB stadium since around 2006. This system tracks the velocity, movement, release point, spin, and pitch location for every pitch thrown in baseball, allowing pitches and pitchers to be analyzed and compared at a detailed level.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 04-13-2012 at 12:07 AM.

  7. #36
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: The Cincinnati Pitching Arsenal: Repertoire for Every Reds Hurler

    There was a segment on Reds Live with Chris Welsh and Marshall. He was explaining his grips and he does have quite a few different pitches and grips. Most pitchers are always messing around with new grips to find some extra edge. It is fascinating to me to listen to the different ways guys throw pitches. Different grips, wrist tilts, releases and such. I also thought that there were many more "spiked" or knuckle curve balls being used.

    It was a very informative post, AtomicDumpling. Thanks for posting.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  8. #37
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: The Cincinnati Pitching Arsenal: Repertoire for Every Reds Hurler

    IIRC, Justin Verlander used to throw a knucklecurve, but had to scrap it because he kept developing blisters. He went back to throwing traditional curveballs (it seems to be working for him)...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."


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