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Thread: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

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    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...-over-mesoraco

    The updated stats: The Reds have a 2.66 ERA with Ryan Hanigan catching and a 4.75 ERA with Devin Mesoraco catching. Opponents are batting .232 when Hanigan is behind the plate, .282 with Mesoraco.

    So, can we read anything into this? Everyone loves to beat up Dusty Baker for his penchant of playing veterans over youngsters, and many believe Mesoraco has All-Star potential, especially with the bat. He's hitting .300 with five walks in his small sample size of 30 at-bats, while Hanigan is hitting .283, but with just one extra-base hit and one RBI in 46 at-bats.
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    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Dusty has no penchant for playing veterans over younger players. That whole thing started when he was regularly playing Neifi Perez over Ronny Cedeņo. Cedeņo was 22 years old at the time, and you have to be pretty elite as a hitter to be able to handle Major League pitching at that age. I don't think I'd consider Cedeņo an elite hitter, but maybe I just need some more time to think about it. If he hates youngsters so much, why aren't Miguel Cairo, Wilson Valdez, and Willie Harris starting everyday?

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    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    I agree with Cam - the whole thing about about Dusty and veterans is a red herring. I don't know where it started, whether it was Cedeno and Perez or not but its a false allegation. I just don't see it as a pattern with the Reds.

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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Yeah, Mesoraco catching Latos and Leake while Hanigan catching Arroyo and Cueto has NOTHING to do with his cERA being better. I want to slap people every time they mention that worthless stat as if it has meaning for how good or bad a catcher is.

    Why does no pitcher aside from Latos or Leake have issues throwing to Mesoraco? Oh, because it isn't an actual issue.

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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    Dusty has no penchant for playing veterans over younger players. That whole thing started when he was regularly playing Neifi Perez over Ronny Cedeņo. Cedeņo was 22 years old at the time, and you have to be pretty elite as a hitter to be able to handle Major League pitching at that age. I don't think I'd consider Cedeņo an elite hitter, but maybe I just need some more time to think about it. If he hates youngsters so much, why aren't Miguel Cairo, Wilson Valdez, and Willie Harris starting everyday?
    Eric Karros over He Sop Choi was another one that Cubs fans pinned on him. That one always makes me chuckle.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yeah, Mesoraco catching Latos and Leake while Hanigan catching Arroyo and Cueto has NOTHING to do with his cERA being better. I want to slap people every time they mention that worthless stat as if it has meaning for how good or bad a catcher is.

    Why does no pitcher aside from Latos or Leake have issues throwing to Mesoraco? Oh, because it isn't an actual issue.
    Well, that's part of the point, isn't it? Chicken or egg?

    The truth, of course, is it's too soon to know anything.

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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yeah, Mesoraco catching Latos and Leake while Hanigan catching Arroyo and Cueto has NOTHING to do with his cERA being better. I want to slap people every time they mention that worthless stat as if it has meaning for how good or bad a catcher is.

    Why does no pitcher aside from Latos or Leake have issues throwing to Mesoraco? Oh, because it isn't an actual issue.
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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yeah, Mesoraco catching Latos and Leake while Hanigan catching Arroyo and Cueto has NOTHING to do with his cERA being better. I want to slap people every time they mention that worthless stat as if it has meaning for how good or bad a catcher is.

    Why does no pitcher aside from Latos or Leake have issues throwing to Mesoraco? Oh, because it isn't an actual issue.

    Before the season started I would have bet on Latos and Leake over Cueto and Arroyo.

    You mentioned Leake and Latos as if they are obviously worse pitchers.

    They aren't.

    Not that I am agreeing with the value of cERA.

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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Before the season started I would have bet on Latos and Leake over Cueto and Arroyo.

    You mentioned Leake and Latos as if they are obviously worse pitchers.

    They aren't.

    Not that I am agreeing with the value of cERA.
    I agree that they aren't exactly worse pitchers, they have just performed worse thus fan and it isn't because of the catchers, it is because both have had big struggles with their command.

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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yeah, Mesoraco catching Latos and Leake while Hanigan catching Arroyo and Cueto has NOTHING to do with his cERA being better. I want to slap people every time they mention that worthless stat as if it has meaning for how good or bad a catcher is.

    Why does no pitcher aside from Latos or Leake have issues throwing to Mesoraco? Oh, because it isn't an actual issue.
    I wanna see the cFIP!
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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    No offense to Mes, who is the catcher of the future. And I don't blame Mes at all for the ERAs of the pitchers he throws to.

    But Ryan Hanigan does deserve some props. I remember when nobody considered him much of a prospect in the minor leagues. Today he is an accomplished defensive catcher and his approach as a hitter is excellent. At bat, he works the pitcher well and gives the Reds a solid at bat almost every time.

    There are a few guys on this team who don't get the credit they deserve. Hanigan is one of them.

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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    No offense to Mes, who is the catcher of the future. And I don't blame Mes at all for the ERAs of the pitchers he throws to.

    But Ryan Hanigan does deserve some props. I remember when nobody considered him much of a prospect in the minor leagues. Today he is an accomplished defensive catcher and his approach as a hitter is excellent. At bat, he works the pitcher well and gives the Reds a solid at bat almost every time.

    There are a few guys on this team who don't get the credit they deserve. Hanigan is one of them.
    Agreed. Whether you believe in cERA or not, the staff clearly performs better with Hanigan behind the plate. It was true with Ramon the last three years and its true now. Mes will be a fine big league starting catcher and his bat may just be the missing piece for the middle of this line-up, but right now, the team is better with Hanigan behind the plate.

    Hanigan can't play every day, so Mes will still get his time behind the plate and I'm guessing will improve as the year goes on, but I wonder if its time to give Mes an OF glove and stick him in LF twice per week. Mes could catch 3 days per week and play LF twice per week. I was hopeful for Ludwick and I still think he'll put up some power, but IMO Heisey is a 4th OF who is shaky in CF and doesn't have the bat for a corner and Stubbs is a defensive replacement/5th OF/pinch runner who plays too much due to lack of solid options. The team needs some sock in its OF and Mes in LF a couple times per week could be of help.
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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I agree that they aren't exactly worse pitchers, they have just performed worse thus fan and it isn't because of the catchers, it is because both have had big struggles with their command.
    I am one that tends to put some credence into cERA. It isn't a totally worthless stat (as I am interpreting you as stating in your previous 2 posts).

    I don't think there is anyone on this board that would say Mesoraco handles pitchers better than Hanigan. Are you stating that it is 100% completely on the pitcher and the catcher has nothing to do with anything? With some pitchers (Halladay, Felix, etc.) it is probably 99/1 but I'd tend to think with lesser pitchers (experience/stuff) it is closer to 90/10.

    Why are so many catchers managers?

    IMO Hanigan does a lot of thinking for the pitchers and there is a reason that Arroyo specifically states that he prefers to throw to Hanigan.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds catchers article on Sweetspot....

    I am saying it is 95% the pitcher and maybe 5% the catcher.

    If catchers mattered all that much, pitchers who change teams wouldn't continue to pitch very close to how they have always pitched. But they do.


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