UK Basketball 8th Edition

[Scrap Irony]

If "all those UK boys" flop, wouldn't the talent level have to be readjusted according to those flops?

I know it's subjective, but I think college basketball was phenomenal this past season. There were great teams, great stories, and great games. You won't find a better college game than the Kentucky-IU Sweet 16 game. Unless you saw the UK- UNC matchup in December. The first UK/ IU game was good too, as was the UNC-Duke game in which Rivers hit the last second bomb from 20 feet. Syracuse played two great games-- one against Notre Dame and the other against Wisconsin.

All but the UNC-Duke game were OOC. None of these mention the best game, IMO, of the season-- Kansas' comeback over Mizzou in overtime.

There were great shooters, great defenders, and, yes, great teams in college basketball last season. No amount of "back-in-my-day" poo-poohing will make that any less true.

The athleticism of an Anthony Davis is awe-inspiring, and I'm fairly certain Uwe Blab-- four year player or not-- couldn't hold his jock.

[New York Red]

You are basing the college basketball talent level on how that talent gets drafted in the NBA. How is 2013 gonna be a down year by your standards? What the NBA scouts have to say about the projected early entries? Once again, if everybody would have stayed in school, next year would be a marquee year. The cycle keeps happening. 2012 was a down year regardless of how the draft goes. What is your judgement on the talent level if all those UK boys are flops in the NBA?

Whether or not UK players become stars or flops in the NBA has nothing to do with my point. A lot of great college players have gone on to have less than stellar NBA careers, and in many cases didn't even stick in the NBA.

There were three teams in college basketball who were head and shoulders above everyone else, talent-wise. Kentucky, North Carolina and Syracuse. That was the consensus opinion of pretty much everyone last year. It was probably the most talented UK team I've seen in my lifetime, and arguably the greatest defensive team college basketball has ever seen. After those three teams, the rest of the country was pretty blah. You yourself claim that 2012 was a down year.

In 2013 there won't be three teams that strong. The top three could be an IU team that's not even close to being as strong as a lot of IU teams I've watched over the years, a Louisville team that isn't even close to being as strong as a lot of UofL teams I've seen in the past, and a UK team that will almost certainly be a notch or two below the 2012 version. IU wasn't even ranked to start last season, UofL wasn't even ranked as recently as February, and UK is a complete unknown commodity entering the '13 season.

Sorry, but that's a pretty weak top three. 2013 will be 2012 without the strong UK, UNC and SU teams. So if you considered 2012 a down year, how can you say 2013 won't be? That doesn't even make sense.

[Scrap Irony]

How is 2013 gonna be a down year by your standards?

Early indications are that next season's draft is going to be among the worst of the past 20 years.

There are hopes that Zeller comes out. (Not likely.) Noel and Muhamed look promising, but are freshmen.

Beyond that? Picking's are extremely slim.

McDermott, everyone's pre-season POY favorite, looks more like Adam Morrison than Larry Bird. Chase Benahan at UofL is being talked up as an almost sure-fire lottery selection. He's a 6'6" power forward who can't hit an open 15-footer to save his life. Olapido at IU is another talented, but extremely raw kid being touted as All-American fare. Nate Wolters is another possible All-American. Know anything about him?

Basically, almost anyone who could have turned pro did. Them' that stayed isn't as good as them's that left.

[WVRed]

Can't remember if this was mentioned earlier in this thread or not, but Andrew Wiggins could possibly reclassify to 2013.

If he plays at Huntington Prep next season I might go to Marietta College and watch a game if they play there again.

[Assembly Hall]

Whether or not UK players become stars or flops in the NBA has nothing to do with my point. A lot of great college players have gone on to have less than stellar NBA careers, and in many cases didn't even stick in the NBA.

There were three teams in college basketball who were head and shoulders above everyone else, talent-wise. Kentucky, North Carolina and Syracuse. That was the consensus opinion of pretty much everyone last year. It was probably the most talented UK team I've seen in my lifetime, and arguably the greatest defensive team college basketball has ever seen. After those three teams, the rest of the country was pretty blah. You yourself claim that 2012 was a down year.

In 2013 there won't be three teams that strong. The top three could be an IU team that's not even close to being as strong as a lot of IU teams I've watched over the years, a Louisville team that isn't even close to being as strong as a lot of UofL teams I've seen in the past, and a UK team that will almost certainly be a notch or two below the 2012 version. IU wasn't even ranked to start last season, UofL wasn't even ranked as recently as February, and UK is a complete unknown commodity entering the '13 season.

Sorry, but that's a pretty weak top three. 2013 will be 2012 without the strong UK, UNC and SU teams. So if you considered 2012 a down year, how can you say 2013 won't be? That doesn't even make sense.

I agree with a lot of what you said. I never said 2013 wouldnt be. I asked for the reasons why some of you are saying it was going to be down.

[Assembly Hall]

Early indications are that next season's draft is going to be among the worst of the past 20 years.

There are hopes that Zeller comes out. (Not likely.) Noel and Muhamed look promising, but are freshmen.

Beyond that? Picking's are extremely slim.

McDermott, everyone's pre-season POY favorite, looks more like Adam Morrison than Larry Bird. Chase Benahan at UofL is being talked up as an almost sure-fire lottery selection. He's a 6'6" power forward who can't hit an open 15-footer to save his life. Olapido at IU is another talented, but extremely raw kid being touted as All-American fare. Nate Wolters is another possible All-American. Know anything about him?

Basically, almost anyone who could have turned pro did. Them' that stayed isn't as good as them's that left.

Thanks for the reply Scrap. So you base the college talent level on the NBA draft? I dont agree with that, but if we all thought alike it would be a boring world!!!!

[Scrap Irony]

The only way I know to judge talent is when it plays other talent. Since we know the NBA has the most talented players in the world, that's the barometer.

If Anthony Davis makes the Olympic Team, comes into the league, dominates, makes multiple All-Star games, and generally becomes a Kevin Garnett/ Tim Duncan guy, you can bet he has a ton of talent.

It's not the draft itself, but how they'll play against those guys already in the professional league.

If Thomas Robinson outperforms his expectations, wouldn't you see the need to reclassify his talent level? Wouldn't you bump him up a notch or three on your personal rankings? Shouldn't the same go with Andre Drummond, Fab Melo, Jeremy Lamb, Doron Lamb, and all of those early entrant guys?

It's certainly not boring to me.

[Assembly Hall]

LOL......sometimes the college game doesnt translate to the NBA. There have been several talented players at the college level whose games didnt work in the NBA. The college is game is down because all the college talent leaves for the next level. Whether they succeed or not at the next level doesnt take away from what they done in college or what their talents were at college level. Basing the college game on how players go in the draft makes no sense to me. Saying this is a deep draft in no way means the college game was spectacular.

There have been alot of steller college b-ball teams in the past. My '76 Hoosiers have been tabbed one of the greatest NCAA teams of all-time. That starting 5, was less than outstanding in the NBA. Were they a great team? Yes. Were they great players? Yes, at the college level.

Scrap, I loved your Uwe Blab reference. I would have loved to see Davis try to defend a hook shot. And I would have loved to have seen Davis try to hold Sam Bowie or Mel Turpin's jock-strap.

[Scrap Irony]

Are you really saying Davis is a lesser player than Blab, Turpin, and Bowie?

Wow.

You are stuck in that era.

[Assembly Hall]

Are you really saying Davis is a lesser player than Blab, Turpin, and Bowie?

Wow.

You are stuck in that era.

LOL .....no I am not stuck in that era. You brought up the Blab reference. And may I remind you that Sam Bowie was the overall #2 selection in the draft ahead of Michael Jordan.

[Scrap Irony]

I think Sam Bowie was among the most talented and athletic players of his era-- before his injuries at the University of Kentucky. He could have ushered in an era (along with Arvydas Sabonis) of great-passing big men similar to Bill Walton.

All three had injuries that limited their effectiveness.

That said, the Sam Bowie who was drafted number two by the Blazers couldn't hold a candle to the Anthony Davis of today.

Both he and Mel Turpin prove my point, BTW. Both were considerd great college players. Bowie wasn't bad at all; Turpin was a product of the Joe B. Hall system. Good college player-- not all that talented. (Or at least not talented enough to carry an extra 75-100 lbs. on his 6'11" frame.)

[Assembly Hall]

I proved no point of yours. You keep wanting to base the college game as to how they perform at the next level. I am saying it doesnt matter. Wayman Tisdale and Ralph Sampson dominated the college game. How many all-star appearances between the two? Ralph went #1 over-all, and Wayman #2. Right now all we know about Davis is that he is a dominating college player and a talented one at that. College basketball will be down because guys with his college basketball talent leave early for the NBA.......and it happens across the board and has for 20 years. This dicussion started over whether the game is down or not. The NBA draft seems to be the consensus amongst a few of the UK fans as to whether it is up or down. I am just saying it aint so. Look at what Bilas and others are saying about the state of college basketball. I want guys to stay 3 years and mature both physically and mentally. You fans at UK have had it pretty good since Cal arrived there, Carolina has done pretty good as well. My beloved Hoosiers just might be walking down the same path. But the college game would be better if Davis stayed, Jones stayed, Teague stayed, Lamb stayed etc.......

[Scrap Irony]

Your claim, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the college game is less than it was-- that it's talent level is watered down. If that's not the case, I apologize for misinterpreting you.

If it is, your claim is flawed. Tisdale is ranked among the top 350 NBA players of all time and had a career average of more than 15 points per game despite being sidelined with diabetes and bum knees for most of the decade he was good.

I'd call that a pretty outstanding career myself.

Sampson is considered among the top 150 NBA players of all time and also averaged 15 points per game despite leg and knee injuries. He's a basketball Hall of Famer to boot.

Both were truly outstanding players, long-time NBA starters who deserve accolades.

Were they as good-- as talented-- as many believed? Probably not, largely due to injuries. Both were in college systems that fed them the ball and both were able to take advantage of gifts others did not possess (height and bulk). I'd also add that both got quite a few calls in college that they didn't get in the NBA and that they played lower to the rim or with fewer moves than comtemporaries.

We also can't overlook the great play of others at that era. Tisdale had Larry Bird to compare to, as well as McHale, Dr. J, Barkley, Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins-- and that's only forwards in the East. It'd be pretty hard to crack that forward lineup to make an All Star game, yes? Too, Sampson wasn't even the best center on his own team-- Olajuwon was. That said, Olajuwon is one of the three or four best centers to ever play the game, so Sampson's numbers would be negated a bit. But he's not going to make many All Star games either, not with Olajuwon, Robinson, Abdul-Jabbar, Issel, and others in the West.

If you're keeping score at home, eight of those players are among the NBA's 50 Greatest, a massive number.

Lastly, if you want to argue this only on logic-- since almost every talking head across the sports world is talking about how watered down the talent is going to be in 2013, it must be watered down from something above it, yes? A - B = C and all that.

Too, those same talking heads wrote column after column about the high talent level in basketball in 2012.

Everyone can't be biased, can they?

If you'd like to show me a column or three that shows differently, I'd love to see who wrote them.

[Revering4Blue]

ESPN's Chad Ford just posted an interesting tidbit about Terrence Jones. Ford comps his well-rounded game with Lamar Odom's game. Per Ford:

I think he was surrounded by so much talent at Kentucky that people just don't get how special a player he can be

Speaking of comps, I'm not so sure that Davis doesn't comp with Olajuwon, as some have suggested, especially if you believe, as I do, that A.O would have been just as effective as a PF in the NBA as a C.

As for Sampson, there are many who blame Bill Fitch for ruining Ralph Sampson by playing him at PF, contributing to knee problems. Olajuwan was a much better athlete than Sampson was and better equipped to deal with the Tom Chambers and Terry Cummings of the world. Sampson was much more effective in the pivot, and IMHO, had he remained there, he would have at least come close to reaching the expectations of him as he entered the NBA.

[Razor Shines]

ESPN's Chad Ford just posted an interesting tidbit about Terrence Jones. Ford comps his well-rounded game with Lamar Odom's game. Per Ford:

That is devastating. He's gonna have to work really hard to dispel that comp....no one plans on being married to an over-weight reality TV star.