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Thread: Chapman named closer

  1. #1
    Retro-Gamer Krawhitham's Avatar
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    Chapman named closer

    But can't pitch today


    WTF, if he can not pitch back to back days how can he be a closer?


    Back to back this season
    Only once but had 1H 2BB 1R

    Last season
    Apr 13 - 1/3 inning 1BB 1R 0SO
    Apr 24 - 1 inning 1H 1BB 0SO
    Apr 27 - 1.2 innings 1H 2SO
    -- He pitched 4 games in 5 days from Apr 23 - Apr 27. In his next 4 appearances he had 1.2 innings 12BB 3SO 10R. After that disaster they tried to not use him in back to back games. But had when they did
    Sept 10 - 0.0 innings 2R 2BB 0SO

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    Re: Chapman named closer

    After watching today's game I have to say I'm OK with Chapman as closer. I feel the Reds have the best bullpen in the National League with Chapman as closer, with Marshall, Ondrusek, & Arredondo as the other late inning options. Hoover & Lecure are adequate swing men. I know most people want Chapman to start and I'd love to see what he can do but the feeling I got watching him close is similar to what Yankees fans must feel like with Rivera in his prime. Even with him throwing mostly fastballs the Yankees couldn't touch him.

    If the bullpen as constructed stays healthy Reds starters really only need to get 6+ innings consistently which is something I believe even Latos, Bailey, & Leake can do consistently. Having an elite bullpen allows our starting pitching to be adequate and still win games.

    I won't complain about Chapman's use anymore and will just enjoy watching him close out wins.

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    Re: Chapman named closer

    I assume now theres no way he becomes a starter this season

  5. #4
    Member Billy Hamilton's Legs's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman named closer

    Quote Originally Posted by herbdizzle View Post
    After watching today's game I have to say I'm OK with Chapman as closer. I feel the Reds have the best bullpen in the National League with Chapman as closer, with Marshall, Ondrusek, & Arredondo as the other late inning options. Hoover & Lecure are adequate swing men. I know most people want Chapman to start and I'd love to see what he can do but the feeling I got watching him close is similar to what Yankees fans must feel like with Rivera in his prime. Even with him throwing mostly fastballs the Yankees couldn't touch him.

    If the bullpen as constructed stays healthy Reds starters really only need to get 6+ innings consistently which is something I believe even Latos, Bailey, & Leake can do consistently. Having an elite bullpen allows our starting pitching to be adequate and still win games.

    I won't complain about Chapman's use anymore and will just enjoy watching him close out wins.
    Why settle? let's set our eyes on a championship, not just the central. Cueto, Latos, Bailey/Arroyo/Leake is not a WS caliber playoff rotation. Cueto/Latos/Chapman has potential. The Cards, Braves, Phillies, Nationals, and Giants all have WS caliber playoff rotations, and until we stop settling for mediocrity, we'll always be the underdog in any playoff matchup. Cueto is an ace, Latos might be an ace, but probably a 2 right now, Bailey is pitching like a 3, Arroyo a 4, and Leake a 5. But that doesnt get you a championship. As long as 3/5 of your SP are Leake, Arroyo, and Bailey, this team will never be elite. You have to cut at least one to make room for someone who profiles as another 1/2. Enter Chapman.

    You can trade one of Bailey/Leake to make room for Chapman, package him with Heisey/Stubbs and any prospect(s) not named Hamilton or Corcino for a nice RH LFer. If Bray and Masset cant come back, maybe a prospect or two for a reliever. Most of this lineup is set for awhile, we can afford to trade some of those prospects.

    Putting chapman in the closers role ensures that he'll be there the rest of the season, and possibly the rest of his career. Even if he starts next year, he'll have a lower innings limit and not be able to make it to october. the reality is, chapman is going to succeed into any role you put him in (at least imo). The reds should at least try him as a starter. If it doesn't work out, move him back to the bullpen; it's that simple. Closer by committee or just Arredondo is the way to go imo. At one point, the angels thought jose could be their closer, why not let him try being ours?
    Last edited by Billy Hamilton's Legs; 05-20-2012 at 06:05 PM.

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    Re: Chapman named closer

    Quote Originally Posted by herbdizzle View Post
    After watching today's game I have to say I'm OK with Chapman as closer. I feel the Reds have the best bullpen in the National League with Chapman as closer, with Marshall, Ondrusek, & Arredondo as the other late inning options. Hoover & Lecure are adequate swing men. I know most people want Chapman to start and I'd love to see what he can do but the feeling I got watching him close is similar to what Yankees fans must feel like with Rivera in his prime. Even with him throwing mostly fastballs the Yankees couldn't touch him.

    If the bullpen as constructed stays healthy Reds starters really only need to get 6+ innings consistently which is something I believe even Latos, Bailey, & Leake can do consistently. Having an elite bullpen allows our starting pitching to be adequate and still win games.

    I won't complain about Chapman's use anymore and will just enjoy watching him close out wins.
    I wish I could be this positive. My worry is that Dusty will now use him in less context-dependant situations. Save situation = Chapman, all else = no Chapman. This will make him less valuable to the team and may put too much wear and tear on Chapman's arm. Up till now, Chapman has been rested between appearances. This is likely to change. Moving him to the rotation is also set back by a year. Instead of being able to pitch 135ish innings this year and 170 the next, it will now be 135 next year. I see all of this as a complete waste of talent.

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    Re: Chapman named closer

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    I see all of this as a complete waste of talent.
    You and me both. I wish our front office would have had a little more foresight with their handling of Chapman. I said this in one of the game threads the other day, but unfortunately I don't see him ever getting a legitimate opportunity as a starter in this organization.

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    Re: Chapman named closer

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsFanInBama View Post
    You and me both. I wish our front office would have had a little more foresight with their handling of Chapman. I said this in one of the game threads the other day, but unfortunately I don't see him ever getting a legitimate opportunity as a starter in this organization.
    I think you might be right. But I really hope you are wrong.

  9. #8
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    Re: Chapman named closer

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsFanInBama View Post
    You and me both. I wish our front office would have had a little more foresight with their handling of Chapman. I said this in one of the game threads the other day, but unfortunately I don't see him ever getting a legitimate opportunity as a starter in this organization.
    I think he could be a Mariano Rivera type closer. I'd take that over a middle of the road starter anyway.

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    Re: Chapman named closer

    I don't disagree that Chapman would be a nice addition to the starting rotation. However, Arroyo & Bailey (2 guys that we had little faith in and needing bounce back seasons) are pitching well and look steady. Latos is an above average starter and will only continue to improve. I think Leake's early season is an aberration and he will return to his form of last couple years. While I believe guys like Arredondo or Ondrusek could be adequate closers, Chapman is ELITE in that role. The Reds have an elite bullpen, two bats in Votto & Bruce that other teams don't have, an ace in Cueto.

    Personally I would rather have Chapman at closer with their existing resources. There's no one else I feel comfortable as a closer for a championship level team (if that is the standard) than Chapman. I'm not saying that this Reds team is WS contenders because I don't. However, their bullpen with Chapman in that role is championship caliber. Getting improved output from LF, 3B, Leake & Latos makes this a formidable team IMO.

  11. #10
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    Re: Chapman named closer

    People talk about Chapman in infinite's. "Chapman is going to succeed into any role you put him in (at least imo)" Fact is no one has any idea what he would be as a starter. He may be great, or he may end up just being a good starter. He really only has two pitches right now. His fastball and his slider I have my doubts that he will sustain his velocity over time, meaning it would be crucial for him to develop a strong 3rd pitch. It could take him a year or even two to become a very good starter, meanwhile he could be a top 3 closer in the league during that time. It's not as cut and clear of a decision as many want to make it out to be.

    Having an elite bullpen (which the Reds do) puts an extreme amount of pressure on opposing offenses to get the job done in the early innings because if it gets to the 7th inning they know it's most likely lights out. Just look at the Reds very own "Nasty Boys" Charlton, Myers, and Dibble. That 1990 Red's team had two very good starters in Tom Browning and Jose Rijo, but after that their starters were solid yet unspectacular. The bullpen however was, yes Nasty and they rode them to a World Series Championship.

    Fact is once a team gets into a seven game series they don't need more than 2 or for sure 3 top end of the rotation pitchers, but it's crucial to have a dominant bullpen from top to bottom. Just think what it's been like when our Reds have had to face guys like Trevor Hoffman and Billy Wagner in their primes. Guys who could blow it by guys no matter who the batter. Teams get to the ninth and struggle just to get a guy on base let alone put together scoring opportunities.

    I don't want to depreciate the value of starting pitching in major league baseball, but I think often times people devalue the importance of a dominant bullpen. Chapman doesn't just have high end potential as a closer, he has a chance to be an all-timer. Shouldn't that count for something with regards to building a World Series contender?
    Last edited by SidneySlicker; 05-20-2012 at 07:10 PM.

  12. #11
    Member Billy Hamilton's Legs's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman named closer

    Quote Originally Posted by SidneySlicker View Post
    People talk about Chapman in infinite's. "Chapman is going to succeed into any role you put him in (at least imo)" Fact is no one has any idea what he would be as a starter. He may be great, or he may end up just being a good starter. He really only has two pitches right now. His fastball and his slider I have my doubts that he will sustain his velocity over time, meaning it would be crucial for him to develop a strong 3rd pitch. It could take him a year or even two to become a very good starter, meanwhile he could be a top 3 closer in the league during that time. It's not as cut and clear of a decision as many want to make it out to be.
    I understand your argument, but when he's been as dominant as he has, there's a good chance he could be successful in a starting role. Neftali Feliz made the switch and has been great. Back when we first signed him and he was starting in AAA he was decent, but not great. That was when he was a still a "thrower" as opposed to the "pitcher" he is now. I just dont understand why you can't try him there. Just try it. See what happens. You may be right. He may not be able to cut it. If that's the case, moving him back into the bullpen isn't a problem.

    A bullpen is great, but your SP needs to put you in a position to win first. A healthy Bray and Masset makes up for the loss of chapman. You could argue it isnt quite the same and I wouldnt disagree, but the margin of loss from chapman to bray/masset in the bullpen is significantly less than the potential gain from arroyo/leake/bailey to chapman. Again, if it doesnt work, just move him back.

    You need at least 3 top tier arms to compete for a WS. As much progress as we've seen from Bailey/Arroyo this season, I don't think it's not enough to make me feel comfortable for the long run/playoffs, and especially not when you're facing a playoff caliber lineup.

    Why can't we take a little risk and try to win the big one?

  13. #12
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    Re: Chapman named closer

    I think there are two separate points here. The Chapman starter vs. relief role is one of them. And many of us disagree on that point. Cool. However, there is also the Chapman as 'closer' vs. Chapman 'as he was previously being used in the bullpen' issue as well. If we are talking about keeping Chapman in the bullpen, I do not like him being named "the closer." Not at all.

    Before:
    Was often used in high leverage situations.
    Was usually rested following an outing.

    What I fear will happen as the Closer:
    Used in every save situation (like today's 5-2 ninth inning).
    Rested only on non-save days or the occasional 14 inning affair (unlike today's 4th appearance in 5 games.)

    I see no real advantage to this change. I just see a manager that wants a plug and play pitching staff to make his decisions simpler. It is a significant loss of flexibility in order to rack up a meaningless stat.

  14. #13
    Member SidneySlicker's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman named closer

    Quote Originally Posted by kuleyb View Post
    I understand your argument, but when he's been as dominant as he has, there's a good chance he could be successful in a starting role. Neftali Feliz made the switch and has been great. Back when we first signed him and he was starting in AAA he was decent, but not great. That was when he was a still a "thrower" as opposed to the "pitcher" he is now. I just dont understand why you can't try him there. Just try it. See what happens. You may be right. He may not be able to cut it. If that's the case, moving him back into the bullpen isn't a problem.

    A bullpen is great, but your SP needs to put you in a position to win first. A healthy Bray and Masset makes up for the loss of chapman. You could argue it isnt quite the same and I wouldnt disagree, but the margin of loss from chapman to bray/masset in the bullpen is significantly less than the potential gain from arroyo/leake/bailey to chapman. Again, if it doesnt work, just move him back.

    You need at least 3 top tier arms to compete for a WS. As much progress as we've seen from Bailey/Arroyo this season, I don't think it's not enough to make me feel comfortable for the long run/playoffs, and especially not when you're facing a playoff caliber lineup.

    Why can't we take a little risk and try to win the big one?
    To let it be known, I'm not against Chapman as a starter. It's a very intriguing thought to have a guy who can throw as hard as he can be a starter.

    I'm just not of the opinion that it's as much of a slam dunk as many think it will be. Worth the risk yeah sure, but some talk like his being an elite number 1 is a foregone conclusion if they make the move with him. While I agree he has become a better pitcher than thrower, to be a TOR starter he still needs a third pitch. Days when he's not being able to locate his slider and his fastballs velocity is down he's got to have a third pitch. Some people are built to be starters and some are not, we'll just have to wait and see.

    I just get tired of the front office bashing that people around here tend to do. People also automatically assume that Chapman being moved to closer also means he'll never be a starter, which I think is also jumping to conclusions.

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    Re: Chapman named closer

    He'll never develop a third pitch in the role this organization has put him in the past two years. He basically scrapped working on a change-up when he became a back-end reliever, which is what he should have done (and probably was told to do). The bottom line is the Reds aren't willing to sacrifice his talents in the minors to let him develop. For this reason, he's not going to be a starter. He'll be a very good closer, I have little doubt. It just sucks that he will never actually get the opportunity to prove or disprove his ability as a front-line starter. Because I do believe those are way more valuable than dominant closers.

  16. #15
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Only has 2 pitches.

    Both are damn near unhittable.

    Randy Johnson pretty much only had 2 as well.


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