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Thread: The Waste of Joey Votto

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    The Waste of Joey Votto

    As of this morning, Joey Votto led all of baseball in extra base hits. The guy should be an RBI machine, particularly in terms of getting guys around from first base. One problem, the Reds can't (or won't) put any OBP guys ahead of him.

    Joey Votto is 75th in terms of runners on base for him. The average team has 2.5 guys who have more RBI chances than Joey Votto. What a waste. I realize some of that is just a function of the roster. But Dusty hasn't made any effort to make the best of the little OBP he does have. Sad.

    At this rate, Votto could have a 9 WAR season with 90 extra base hits and he won't drive in 100 runs.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Moderator Plus Plus's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    I couldn't agree more. This team needs some sort of OBP in front of Votto, and badly. Sadly, there aren't a lot of extant options on the roster. Hanigan would be a great option, but Baker is reluctant to bat any catcher that high in the order. The only other two guys with OBP's even higher than .310 are Heisey and Phillips, who would make a very nice 1-2, but that situation is made harder because of Baker's reluctance to bat Bruce and Votto back to back.

    Without a roster addition, either in the form of a RHB to put between Votto and Bruce (Baker's idea, not mine) or a player with a higher OBP being brought up, I think that Votto will be suffering from this for the whole season- or at the very least until the trade deadline in July.
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    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Hanigan would be perfect, but as Plus Plus noted - catchers don't bat high in the order for Dusty. Of all the great qualities Dusty has as a manager, his "this player bats here" tendencies drive me up a wall.
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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Hanigan would be perfect, but as Plus Plus noted - catchers don't bat high in the order for Dusty. Of all the great qualities Dusty has as a manager, his "this player bats here" tendencies drive me up a wall.
    I don't know if I'd call it perfect though. He does get on base at a high clip, but being on base is only half of the equation -- being able to advance bases is the other.

    Having runners on during homers certainly makes a difference because they're guaranteed of scoring. However, Hanigan is such a slow baserunner, his ability to take extra bases (first to third on a single, first to home on a double, second to home on a single, third to home on a sac fly, etc.) might mitigate some of his being on the base paths to begin with.

    I'd rather have someone on base and deal with that aspect as a secondary factor, but I'm not sure it would mean as many RBIs for Votto because of his running.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Hanigan would be perfect, but as Plus Plus noted - catchers don't bat high in the order for Dusty. Of all the great qualities Dusty has as a manager, his "this player bats here" tendencies drive me up a wall.
    Catchers don't bat high in the order for anyone else, either.
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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    Catchers don't bat high in the order for anyone else, either.
    John Jaso had 200 PA's as the leadoff hitter for Tampa Bay in 2010.

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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    John Jaso had 200 PA's as the leadoff hitter for Tampa Bay in 2010.
    OK, that's one. And Mauer usually hits third for the Twins. But catchers hitting at the top of the order is (and always has been) a rare occurance in Major League Baseball. And it's not because of Dusty Baker.
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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    OK, that's one. And Mauer usually hits third for the Twins. But catchers hitting at the top of the order is (and always has been) a rare occurance in Major League Baseball. And it's not because of Dusty Baker.
    No, but it is because of the thought process that has been in baseball forever, that was taught to Dusty.

  10. #9
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, but it is because of the thought process that has been in baseball forever, that was taught to Dusty.
    As long as we all agree its not Dusty's fault.

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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    OK, that's one. And Mauer usually hits third for the Twins. But catchers hitting at the top of the order is (and always has been) a rare occurance in Major League Baseball. And it's not because of Dusty Baker.
    Simply because catchers have been right behind pitchers in terms of hitting prowess. They are usually mediocre to bad hitters that are slow of foot. Not the kind of hitter you want at the top of the order.

    But there are exceptions, and Hanigan is one of them.
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    I don't want Hanigan batting second. First, he only plays 60% of the games, so it wouldn't be that effective. Second, he's a perfect #8 hitter, who strives on the fact that pitchers pitch around him because the pitcher is up next. Put him in front of Votto, and his walks will drop significantly, and he really doesn't have the bat to take advantage of being aggressively pitched to. Bat him second, and I think his production would plummet.
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  13. #12
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, but it is because of the thought process that has been in baseball forever, that was taught to Dusty.
    I agree with you on that. Maybe I misinterpreted the previous post, but I read it that Dusty was doing something archaic that nobody else would do. I was pointing out that it is a prevailing idea in baseball, and he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary.
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    As of this morning, Joey Votto led all of baseball in extra base hits. The guy should be an RBI machine, particularly in terms of getting guys around from first base. One problem, the Reds can't (or won't) put any OBP guys ahead of him.

    Joey Votto is 75th in terms of runners on base for him. The average team has 2.5 guys who have more RBI chances than Joey Votto. What a waste. I realize some of that is just a function of the roster. But Dusty hasn't made any effort to make the best of the little OBP he does have. Sad.

    At this rate, Votto could have a 9 WAR season with 90 extra base hits and he won't drive in 100 runs.
    The lineup construction has baffled me since Dusty arrived as manager. Those high OBP guys just clog the bases.......remember.

    Living and dying by the home run is a disease with this team, and maybe the organization.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  15. #14
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan....oh, by the way...did I mention that I'd like Hanigan near the top of the lineup? *sigh*

    The footspeed problem...not a concern. If he's on base, he's ON BASE at least. As for the walks declining, sure I'd expect them to some. But he's got a great eye, makes excellent contact and doesn't chase or hit into DP's. He's perfect for the 2 hole. Excellent hit and run guy too.

    Phillips
    Hanigan
    Votto
    Bruce
    mix and match from here on down.

    It'll never happen though. Sadly.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 05-28-2012 at 03:28 PM.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  16. #15
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: The Waste of Joey Votto

    What, you mean you don't like Wilson Valdez batting second?!?!? Dusty Baker is hilarious.

    Hanigan needs to bat #1/2. Who cares if he's a catcher, he gets on base and that's all that matters.
    I miss Adam Dunn.


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