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Thread: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

  1. #16
    Member powersackers's Avatar
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Justin Upton's OBP is .340 this year, and that's by far the lowest it's been since he was a 19 year old rookie in 2007. In other words, if he can't dramatically increase the team's OBP, I don't know who can.

    I'd "mortgage the future" for Upton, because I believe the Reds future would include multiple Pennants, if not World Series.

    And I'd argue that deal wouldn't mortgage the future, as the Reds would still have three SP in AA worth monitoring, in addition to all the talent they now have in the rookie leagues from the last two drafts. And three of their top five hitting prospects (Lutz, Rodriguez, Vidal). Plus, barring injury, they'd be set at every position on the diamond through 2015.
    Lots of faith in Upton on this board. Sure he's a phenom and he's only 24. But he's doing worse than Ludwick this season in a lot of categories. Let's not go throwring Hamilton and Corcino's name around please...
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.

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  3. #17
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Bruce for Upton is the only way you'll even get their attention, I watch a lot if DBack games and he's their savior

    In short find a realistic target because Upton is not going anywhere, like Stanton, like Heyward, Trout and like Harper these guys are built around not traded for Stubbs and the Heisey's of the game

  4. #18
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Bruce for Upton is the only way you'll even get their attention, I watch a lot if DBack games and he's their savior

    In short find a realistic target because Upton is not going anywhere, like Stanton, like Heyward, Trout and like Harper these guys are built around not traded for Stubbs and the Heisey's of the game
    Wouldn't you have said the same about Mat Latos six months ago?

    A four player package that includes Hamilton and Corcino is in some ways similar to the package that was dealt for Latos. Except Upton is owed $45M while Latos makes the league minimum.

    In the end you're probably right about him not going anywhere. But the purpose of this thread was to get BOLD. And Kendrick's comments this week opened the door of possibility, even if it's just a crack.
    Last edited by Benihana; 06-07-2012 at 03:08 PM.
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  5. #19
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Wouldn't you have said the same about Mat Latos six months ago?

    A four player package that includes Hamilton and Corcino is in some ways similar to the package that was dealt for Latos. Except Upton is owed $45M while Latos makes the league minimum.

    In the end you're probably right about him not going anywhere. But the purpose of this thread was to get BOLD. And Kendrick's comments this week opened the door of possibility, even if it's just a crack.
    No I wouldn't have said that about Latos

    SD is not coming off a playoff year, they have ownership issues and offensive issues

    Pitching is a strength in that park and they just dealt from that strength to get some much needed depth

  6. #20
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    No I wouldn't have said that about Latos

    SD is not coming off a playoff year, they have ownership issues and offensive issues

    Pitching is a strength in that park and they just dealt from that strength to get some much needed depth

    Who's to say if the D-Backs are 20 games back at the deadline they don't blow the thing up and embark on a massive rebuild? They're already 9 back and we still have over a month until the ASB. Drew's gone at the end of the year, and the strength in the organization is the three young pitchers, two of whom are still a couple years away from really contributing.
    Go BLUE!!!

  7. #21
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Justin Upton's OBP is .340 this year, and that's by far the lowest it's been since he was a 19 year old rookie in 2007. In other words, if he can't dramatically increase the team's OBP, I don't know who can.

    I'd "mortgage the future" for Upton, because I believe the Reds future would include multiple Pennants, if not World Series.

    And I'd argue that deal wouldn't mortgage the future, as the Reds would still have three SP in AA worth monitoring, in addition to all the talent they now have in the rookie leagues from the last two drafts. And three of their top five hitting prospects (Lutz, Rodriguez, Vidal). Plus, barring injury, they'd be set at every position on the diamond through 2015.
    There are mortgages and there are mortgages.

    Would I give up a Stephenson (sight unseen) or a Cingrani as the main piece for Juston Upton? Yes.

    Would I give up Corcino? Probably, if he's the main piece in the deal.

    Would I give up Hamilton? No.

    Would I give up three top prospects for Upton? No.

    Would I give up two top prospects, not including Hamilton? Probably yes. And I'd include a Heisey as well, or a Soto, and/or various other players.

    Would I rather trade lesser prospects to get lefty hitting OBP types instead of Upton? Yes.

    Do I think the DBacks would accept the players I'm prepared to give them? No.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-07-2012 at 03:14 PM.

  8. #22
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by powersackers View Post
    Lots of faith in Upton on this board. Sure he's a phenom and he's only 24. But he's doing worse than Ludwick this season in a lot of categories. Let's not go throwring Hamilton and Corcino's name around please...
    I can't tell if this is meant to be sarcastic. If so,

    If not...

    Upton is 4 months younger than Jay Bruce and has significantly out-performed him so far in their respective careers. He's averaged neraly 5 wins per season over the past 3 years. Upton's "poor" season so far has included him dealing with a hand injury.

    If you asked around baseball, I bet more GMs would take Upton than would take Bruce. Hamilton and Corcino both have a less than 50% chance of becoming even league average players (this can be said about virtually any prospect in A or AA) -- and neither has Upton's upside. I think people are confusing just how awesome Hamilton's speed is aesthetically and in terms of SBs with how it's likely to translate in to real production at the major league level.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  9. #23
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    If I can have either 3.5 years of Justin Upton or the future of Corcino, Cingrani and Hamilton, please, send me the Upton deal every single time. Do you have any other proven superstar players you'd like to swap for three unproven low level minor league stars?

  10. #24
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Who's to say if the D-Backs are 20 games back at the deadline they don't blow the thing up and embark on a massive rebuild? They're already 9 back and we still have over a month until the ASB. Drew's gone at the end of the year, and the strength in the organization is the three young pitchers, two of whom are still a couple years away from really contributing.
    You rebuild with guys who are under your control for 3 more years at a reasonable rate. I think its completely unrealistic to think that the DBacks would trade him, if they did it would be a blockbuster that more often than not happens in the offseason.

    If you were to trade for him I think it would start with Stubbs, Leake/Bailey, + 2 top tier prospects. Why would a team want both Stubbs and Heisey? The two are both very similar players.

  11. #25
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    You rebuild with guys who are under your control for 3 more years at a reasonable rate.
    Or you trade those guys for the most return value in order to rebuild. Hence the Latos deal.

    I think its completely unrealistic to think that the DBacks would trade him, if they did it would be a blockbuster that more often than not happens in the offseason.

    If you were to trade for him I think it would start with Stubbs, Leake/Bailey, + 2 top tier prospects. Why would a team want both Stubbs and Heisey? The two are both very similar players.
    No one suggested trading both Stubbs and Heisey - it was an either/or.

    I agree that a trade like this happens in the offseason more often than not.

    Interestingly, Upton sat out the last two games in a row.


    I don't think Upton will be traded. As I said in the initial post, there is less than a 10% chance of it happening. But I do think it's an interesting scenario to consider, especially given the Reds' needs, Upton's struggles, and the recent criticism he has come under from his ownership (and apparently his manager in benching him).
    Last edited by Benihana; 06-07-2012 at 03:51 PM.
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  12. #26
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    From what I've read on Upton lately is that the managing general partner is upset with him and Drew while the GM and manager are not

    Sounds like the managing General partner needs to check his comments at the door, he sounds like an arse

  13. #27
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Or you trade those guys for the most return value in order to rebuild. Hence the Latos deal.
    The Padres were an utter mess with holes everywhere. They traded Latos to rebuild. The DBacks are coming off of a division title, unless your the Marlins you don't operate like that.

  14. #28
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I can't tell if this is meant to be sarcastic. If so,

    If not...

    Upton is 4 months younger than Jay Bruce and has significantly out-performed him so far in their respective careers. He's averaged neraly 5 wins per season over the past 3 years. Upton's "poor" season so far has included him dealing with a hand injury.

    If you asked around baseball, I bet more GMs would take Upton than would take Bruce. Hamilton and Corcino both have a less than 50% chance of becoming even league average players (this can be said about virtually any prospect in A or AA) -- and neither has Upton's upside. I think people are confusing just how awesome Hamilton's speed is aesthetically and in terms of SBs with how it's likely to translate in to real production at the major league level.
    If were talking about 2012, I'm not being sarcastic. He may not help a ton this year. His value through 2016 is what you'd be banking on. And that is a good bet. But this year, bleh.
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.

  15. #29
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    I'm not at all bold I guess. I'd still try to get DeJesus or Cabrera and call LF and Leadoff fixed. DeJesus would probably cost less and would be here for a couple years, Cabrera likely cost more and be a rental. Hence I'd prefer DeJesus. Nothing fancy or bold. Just veteran high OBP solid D reasonable cost.

  16. #30
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Three Bold Ideas to Fix LF

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    Mindful of the "trading within the division": Nyjer Morgan. Can reach base against righties, run. Might be a bad chemistry guy. Might be a good one.
    I'd be STRONGLY against that move. I love the fact that we've built a team of high-character guys...this would quickly negate that IMO.
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