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Thread: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

  1. #61
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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    For what it's worth, Kevin Goldstein of BP wrote on ESPN.com today about "10 prospects moving to fast track" and Cingrani was listed in that 10.
    That quote has me thinking...could Cingrani replace another 6'4" lefty with a dominant fastball who's last name also begins with a C next year- freeing up that pitcher to work in the rotation?

    In a perfect world, both of these guys would start, and leave bullpen duties to the Donnie Josephs of the world. But is this a perfect world?
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  3. #62
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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Kevin Goldstein, two days ago:

    Many still see a reliever in the end. RT @BubbaStutes: @Kevin_Goldstein Thoughts on Tony Cingrani?

    That is why he isn't our top pitching prospect.

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Kevin Goldstein, two days ago:

    Many still see a reliever in the end. RT @BubbaStutes: @Kevin_Goldstein Thoughts on Tony Cingrani?

    That is why he isn't our top pitching prospect.
    To be totally fair to the other side of the coin, many said that about Cueto for many years too. Not necessarily because of his stuff, but because of his height.

    Fortunately you don't hear that as much with Corcino this time around.

    Speaking of Corcino, it's interesting to note that if he had about 10 fewer walks and 10 more strikeouts, he would have almost exactly identical numbers in AA this year to what he did in A last year- that is quite impressive for a 21 year old who skipped a level.
    Last edited by Benihana; 06-28-2012 at 05:45 PM.
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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Roger Goodell says you need to sit out for at least 4 weeks after that. Don't go concussing yourself! It's simply not worth it.

    Cingrani is out-performing his teammates that are supposedly better pitching prospects. Sorry, I'll take the results. Is Corcino good? Absolutely. Am I thrilled he's a Reds prospect? No question. Do I think Cingrani is better? Yes. (Same deal for Lotzkar. Very good prospect. I like Cingrani better.)

    Doug, every pitcher in MLB history that has added/perfected their breaking balls the deeper they get in their career is laughing at your assessment that it's so tough to teach breaking balls. It's not easy. But when you have everything else in place like Cingrani does, don't insult my intelligence and pretend as if he can't add to his arsenal as it pertains to his off-speed stuff.

    Can Mike Leake be taught to throw 95? No. Can Tony Cingrani be taught better breaking stuff? You better believe it.

    (As for Cingrani's fastball, I've read numerous places he's touched 95 during his pro career. It's kind of like saying Travieso can touch 99. He doesn't usually sit there, but he can reach it.)
    And every relief pitcher who couldn't develop a good one is crying somewhere too wondering why they couldn't get the contract that CC Sabathia got.

    Tony Cingrani started 3 of his 4 years in college. You think his coaches in Juco and at Rice didn't try to teach him a breaking ball? Sure, they aren't the Reds guys who are without a doubt better, but it isn't like those guys are knothole coaches.

    So far in AA, I haven't heard of one report of Cingrani hitting 95. Heck, I have only heard a few 93's. Last night he was 90-91, sometimes below, a few times he hit 92. That is fine. That will work, especially with the movement he gets.

    Outperforming someone in the minors doesn't mean you will do so in the Majors. Bruce and Votto were in AAA together. Bruce outhit him, significantly. Minor League production only means so much. You can get away with things in the minors that you can't in the Majors.

    And I will ask again..... how many times have you seen Cingrani pitch? I am at 7 times now (if we include several innings of games) as a pro.

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Doug,

    Phat Tony completely revamped his delivery prior to his senior season. Here is the article on this below. Maybe that is why he needs to work on his breaking pitch. He only spent one year at Rice prior to be drafted.

    http://www.foxsportshouston.com/06/0...blockID=531226

    Of all the reclamation projects undertaken by Rice coach Wayne Graham and Pierce, Cingrani might be their most rewarding yet. Stunningly ineffective as a starter following his transfer from South Suburban College (South Holland, Ill.) last season, Cingrani submitted himself to reconstructing his mechanics, put forth the effort during the offseason to make those tweaks feel natural, and then experienced a rebirth when Graham relocated him from the rotation to the back of the Rice bullpen.

    Cingrani first realized his potential as a closer on March 23 against the Houston Cougars at Reckling Park. After all the energy expended to change his mechanics, to create more deception during his delivery and to improve the command of his fastball, Cingrani touched 97 miles per hour on the radar gun. For a left-hander that's rarified air, and that accomplishment offered Cingrani a quick glimpse of what was possible.

    "That was incredible," Cingrani said. "I never dreamed that I could hit 96 and 97, and then it happened. This whole year has just been crazy and awesome. It's been a great year."

    That moment didn't come easy. Even after Cingrani logged countless hours making the adjustments to his delivery there was trial and error, innumerable sessions spent in the bullpen waiting for everything to click. In addition, Cingrani had to display the mettle necessary to close, particularly after Graham made the decision to move sophomore closer Tyler Duffey into the setup role, essentially clearing a path for Cingrani.

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    I know about that. But Cingrani spent two years at Rice.

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I know about that. But Cingrani spent two years at Rice.
    From the article they made it sound like one...

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by bellhead View Post
    From the article they made it sound like one...
    He was there in 2010 as a starter and then in 2011 as a reliever. Spent the other two years in JUCO starting.

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Doug, I didn't know you had to see someone pitch live in order to read their statistics. I've seen Cingrani pitch on video and I like his mechanics. Sorry I missed his career at Rice. I also didn't make it to as many games in Billings, Bakersfield and Pensacola that I usually do. That crazy work sked I tell ya!

    So, tell me, what part about his stats are confusing? I need to see him pitch live to better understand the fact he's dominated since the first time he took the mound as a pro?

    Yeah, didn't think so. Nice try though.

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Doug, I didn't know you had to see someone pitch live in order to read their statistics. I've seen Cingrani pitch on video and I like his mechanics. Sorry I missed his career at Rice. I also didn't make it to as many games in Billings, Bakersfield and Pensacola that I usually do. That crazy work sked I tell ya!

    So, tell me, what part about his stats are confusing? I need to see him pitch live to better understand the fact he's dominated since the first time he took the mound as a pro?

    Yeah, didn't think so. Nice try though.
    None of his stats are confusing. But stats don't just hop on over to the Majors. What you need to actually SEE from him is HOW he is getting the strikeouts. Donnie Joseph in 2010 was dominant. Here is what I wrote about him, after watching him a whole bunch, after the season:

    The one thing that could slow down his rise is his inconsistencies in throwing his slider for strikes at times and more advanced hitters were able to lay off of the pitch when it was clearly out of the zone.

    Fast forward to the 2011 season and what happened? He went up a level and there were a lot more guys who were able to find his weakness and exploit it. He walked a ton of guys and gave up a ton of hits.

    What has he done in 2012? Figured out how to throw his slider in the strikezone and he is back to dominating.

    But if you simply looked at his stats from 2010, then there was no way his 2011 was possible or predictable.

    You need to watch minor leaguers play to accurately assess them. So you do need to actually watch them play to have a good idea of what they will be able to do at the MLB level.

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What has he done in 2012? Figured out how to throw his slider in the strikezone and he is back to dominating.
    Translation: Donnie Joseph has improved his off-speed pitches.

    The prosecution rests, your honor.

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    A few thoughts on Cingrani:

    1) I recall when we were promised that Homer Bailey was going to be a much better pitcher than Johnny Cueto (everybody who knew what was what and had watched them said so). In reality what it reflected was that a lot of people were so invested in Bailey being the guy that they couldn't see that Cueto was the guy.

    2) Along those lines, the guy who's dominating even though he wasn't supposed to is usually a guy worth keeping an eye on. You want outliers. Outliers can be awesome. Cingrani was converted from a college reliever to a starter. That was supposed to be slow going, but he dominated. Cingrani jumped two levels up to the Cali league start this season. That was supposed to be too much too soon according to some, but he dominated. Now he's up in AA a year after he got drafted and he's dominating again.

    3) If you want precedent on a LH pitcher who made hay on an awesome fastball/change combo along with a slider that can be problematic, look no farther than Johan Santana.
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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    He just struck out the side to start a game, then proceeded to pitch 8 shutout (the first six without a hit) innings on 100 pitches. 3 hits, 15 Ks, 1 BB! I wouldn't give up on him starting just yet.
    Full story

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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    A few thoughts on Cingrani:

    1) I recall when we were promised that Homer Bailey was going to be a much better pitcher than Johnny Cueto (everybody who knew what was what and had watched them said so). In reality what it reflected was that a lot of people were so invested in Bailey being the guy that they couldn't see that Cueto was the guy.

    2) Along those lines, the guy who's dominating even though he wasn't supposed to is usually a guy worth keeping an eye on. You want outliers. Outliers can be awesome. Cingrani was converted from a college reliever to a starter. That was supposed to be slow going, but he dominated. Cingrani jumped two levels up to the Cali league start this season. That was supposed to be too much too soon according to some, but he dominated. Now he's up in AA a year after he got drafted and he's dominating again.

    3) If you want precedent on a LH pitcher who made hay on an awesome fastball/change combo along with a slider that can be problematic, look no farther than Johan Santana.
    1. No one ever said Cueto wasn't better than Bailey at the time, it was just expected that Bailey would keep improving and that Cueto probably wouldn't since he was more polished.

    2. Cingrani started 3 years in college. Not exactly a reliever to starter. He only relieved his senior year.

    3. That would be nice and all, except that Cingrani is more of a FB/SL than FB/CH guy even though his CH is better than his slider.

  16. #75
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    Re: Cingrani is our best pitching prospect IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Translation: Donnie Joseph has improved his off-speed pitches.

    The prosecution rests, your honor.
    In other words, once Cingrani improves his off-speed pitches, he'll be the organization's best pitching prospect. I think that's what Doug's trying to say. You can't just bank on a big improvement happening like that. If so, you must think Yorman Rodriguez is one of the best prospects in baseball.


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