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Thread: Elephant in the Room

  1. #16
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    I'm all for moving Stubbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    The offense has been better since Stubbs went out because Valdez has been raking. I guess the smart thing to do is to play Valdez everyday in CF and expect him to hit 200 points over his career OPS.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  4. #18
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    I'm all for moving Stubbs.
    Why? What good will it do?

    You're not going to get a better outfielder for him, and that's what the Reds need. They don't need pitching. They need bench players and a legit starting OF. Rather just make Stubbs a bench player for now then trade him for a Willie Bloomquist type.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  5. #19
    Resident PED Expert nemesis's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The offense has been better since Stubbs went out because Valdez has been raking. I guess the smart thing to do is to play Valdez everyday in CF and expect him to hit 200 points over his career OPS.
    No. But playing Heisey there isn't much of a drop off if any at all.

    And if you do make a move for Willingham and Span...

    Span
    Phillips
    Votto
    Willingham
    Bruce
    Frazier/Rolen
    Cozart
    Hanigan/Mesoraco

    Looks a whole lot better than

    Cozart
    Stubbs
    Votto
    Phillips
    Bruce
    Rolen/Frazier
    Ludwick/Heisey
    Hanigan/Mesoraco
    If you can't be a good example... then you'll just have to be a horrible warning...

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  6. #20
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis View Post
    No. But playing Heisey there isn't much of a drop off if any at all.

    And if you do make a move for Willingham and Span...

    Span
    Phillips
    Votto
    Willingham
    Bruce
    Frazier
    Cozart
    Hanigan/Mesoraco

    Looks a whole lot better than

    Cozart
    Stubbs
    Votto
    Phillips
    Bruce
    Rolen
    Ludwick/Heisey
    Hanigan/Mesoraco
    Adding Ryan Braun and Mike Trout makes them better too.

    Who do you give up to get those guys? How do you afford them payroll wise?
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  7. #21
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The offense has been better since Stubbs went out because Valdez has been raking. I guess the smart thing to do is to play Valdez everyday in CF and expect him to hit 200 points over his career OPS.
    Obviously not. But there is a serious question raised by this thread.

    The whole group for 3B, LF, and CF is Stubbs, Rolen, Ludwick, Heisey, Valdez, Cairo, Frazier.

    I think it's fair to say that the two outstanding defenders in the group are Rolen and Stubbs. In that regard, they will improve the team when they return.

    But this thread raises the serious question whether the offense, which is now going well, will be helped by playing Rolen and Stubbs every day. I'm not sure of the answer.

    Can Rolen hit any more? Will Stubbs curtail his strikeouts and hit well, as he has in spots this year? Are the Reds better off with Frazier at third? With Heisey in CF and Valdez as his backup? If Frazier plays LF, do the Reds lose some power by sitting Ludwick? Should the Reds take this whole group, trade some, keep some, and come up with a new allignment?

    These are questions worthy of discussion. It's just not so obvious that Rolen/Stubbs makes this a better team right now.

  8. #22
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    I'm not against trading Stubbs for a decent bat/arm, but I don't think a Heisey/Valdez/Harris/whoever platoon would be especially better offensively and almost certainly not defensively.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  9. #23
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    I'd give Rolen a real look at 3b with Frazier in left, at the same time giving Ludwick and Heisey enough AB's to keep improving. Stubbs, IMO, should be the first odd man out. It's too early to deal him, but I'd start making preliminary inquiries.

  10. #24
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Stubbs + prospect for Carlos Quentin. Padres get something for a rental. Reds overpay but get their legit righthanded cleanup hitter with good career OBP in the .340-.350 range. Reds rid themselves of the outfield logjam and what to do with Stubbs/Heisey situation.

    Rolen comes back, figures out after 30 to 40 games he's toast, and retires for the good of the team. Frazier moves back to 3B.

    SS Cozart
    2B Phillips
    1B Votto
    LF Quentin
    RF Bruce
    CF Heisey
    3B Rolen/Frazier
    C Haniraco

    Offenses explodes even more.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  11. #25
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Add a lefty bat to the mix. Deal Prospects for Dejesus (Lotzkar and Christiani is where I'd start). Deal Ludwick for salary relief since he's mostly just a lefty killer and the Reds have those coming out their ears.

    Against LHP, Rolen at 3B, Frazier in LF and Stubbs in CF. Bruce and Heisey split time in RF 50/50.

    Against RHP Rolen at 3B 50% of the time, Frazier 50% of the time. The Acquisition (Dejesus) in LF 100% of the time. Heisey and Stubbs each get 50% of the time in CF.

    Once in a while Rolen gets and extra day off with Cairo getting a start.

    For it to work, the team needs to switch Ludwick out for a LH Bat (Dejesus).

    Lacking an acquisition, then the PAs against RHP in LF are split between Frazier and Ludwick with Ludwick only playing when Frazier is playing 3B or needs a day-off.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  12. #26
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Why? What good will it do?

    You're not going to get a better outfielder for him, and that's what the Reds need. They don't need pitching. They need bench players and a legit starting OF. Rather just make Stubbs a bench player for now then trade him for a Willie Bloomquist type.
    You don't think the Twins would trade Willingham for Stubbs? I absolutely think they would.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  13. #27
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    You don't think the Twins would trade Willingham for Stubbs? I absolutely think they would.
    No way would the Twins do that. Maybe if you add Corcino and Gregorious. Too many teams looking for big bats.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  14. #28
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    No way would the Twins do that. Maybe if you add Corcino and Gregorious. Too many teams looking for big bats.
    What teams?

    San Fran maybe. Not the Dodgers. Diamondbacks already have big bats.

    St. Louis has plenty of big bats with Beltran and Holiday. Pirates won't pony up prospects or pay enough.

    Nationals are set. Miami is set. Mets and Braves are fading. Mets have salary/money problems to begin with.

    Tigers have enough big bats. Indians are fading. Rangers are set with big bats.

    Yankees are set. Tampa won't do anything. Toronto has Bautista and EE.

    I really don't see a HUGE market where all these so-called teams are lining up to add a big bat. Especially a rental.

    Personally, I think the Reds should strike now and maybe overpay a little bit to get it done. Then let's put some distance between us and the Central.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  15. #29
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Personally, I think the Reds should strike now and maybe overpay a little bit to get it done. Then let's put some distance between us and the Central.
    Unlike they are doing right now?
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  16. #30
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Stubbs + prospect for Carlos Quentin. Padres get something for a rental. Reds overpay but get their legit righthanded cleanup hitter with good career OBP in the .340-.350 range. Reds rid themselves of the outfield logjam and what to do with Stubbs/Heisey situation.

    Rolen comes back, figures out after 30 to 40 games he's toast, and retires for the good of the team. Frazier moves back to 3B.

    SS Cozart
    2B Phillips
    1B Votto
    LF Quentin
    RF Bruce
    CF Heisey
    3B Rolen/Frazier
    C Haniraco

    Offenses explodes even more.
    If Quentin was willing to negotiate an extension and if the Reds could afford him, sign me up here. It's a lot of ifs, though.


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