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Thread: Elephant in the Room

  1. #61
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Last night was another reason I don't want Heisey as the everyday CFer. That ball Brantley hit to lead off the 4th inning would have been caught by Stubbs. Heisey dropped it, and it eventually led to a three run inning. Stubbs catches that ball standing up.
    Heisey could have had it standing up also. A lot of mustard on that hot dog.

    The thing isn't Heisey, its Stubbs. Stubbs at the plate is brutal to watch. In that sense, he's the anti-Votto.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  3. #62
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    Heisey could have had it standing up also. A lot of mustard on that hot dog.

    The thing isn't Heisey, its Stubbs. Stubbs at the plate is brutal to watch. In that sense, he's the anti-Votto.
    Heisey's numbers this year are just as bad. Why not play the better defender?

  4. #63
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rover View Post
    Heisey's numbers this year are just as bad. Why not play the better defender?
    If you expect that to continue, sure. But Heisey out-hit Stubbs in the minors and has done so in the majors also, albeit with limited playing time.

    In a crucial situation, I prefer just about anyone to Stubbs up there.
    Career .639 OPS with RISP and .654 with runners on for Drew.
    Heisey is only a tad better at .653 and .703.

    Wilson Valdez is better in that regard. (.764 career RISP hitter).

    Maybe its splitting hairs or choosing the rock/hard place. I'd take my chances with Heisey. But that's me and I don't think Dusty thinks that way.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  5. #64
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Stubbs' wOBA has dropped three years in a row and is less than league average. His UZR indicates a less than average to poor CF glove. Another, lesser heralded player can do just as well (or at least close enough) and is likely to cost less going forward.

    He was 17th among all qualified CF last season in wOBA, ahead of only Angel Pagan, Austin Jackson, Colby Rasmus, and and Alex Rios. This season, he's ahead of only Jordan Schafer and Cameron Maybin.

    Those of us that are "down" on Stubbs have good reason, IMO.
    Stubb's salary is not an issue, and it won't be an issue unless he has a breakout season, which no one will complain about.

    Sure, Stubbs had a down year last season.
    But this year, he's started 51 games.
    36 of those games in the #2 hole with a 824 OPS.. especially with his speed and defense, that's a valuable player. Not I agree he was absysmal in the other 15 games that he did not bat #2..
    He's a streaky player, like most of our guys, but I'm not willing to trade him for a rental LF that can't play defense that is only a marginal upgrade over what we have. I'm in no hurry at all to trade Stubbs.. The Reds would have to be bowled over for me to even consider it. Stubbs has solidified CF. Even if he's only an "average" CF.. Average CF are hard to find, and it's great not to have to trot a Corey Patterson out there. Heisey is a lesser player than Stubbs, IMO. Plus, it's useful to have both of them on the roster.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  6. #65
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    To some extent, the Stubbs/Heisey debate revolves around other players at other positions.

    The Reds have too few lefty hitters. The Reds lack true tablesetters. The Reds lack a true middle of the order RHH.

    If the Reds were to add one or more of these types, Stubbs' hitting would matter less.

    I find Drew difficult to watch, he misses so many pitches, his inability to foul them off. But if the Reds had a better balanced offense, Drew could hit seventh - or even second - and his offensive issues wouldn't have that much impact.

    We're all looking for a big positive from CF offensively. Maybe we get the big positive from a different position and Drew would be adequate.

    As for Heisey, he had a bad game last night so I'm not discussing him today.

  7. #66
    Member hebroncougar's Avatar
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    And, really, he hasn't been a very good hitter anywhere as a professional. Career .765 OPS guy for his career in the minors.
    <br />
    Exactly, I just think he is what he is at this point. I'll be very surprised if he ever approaches his 2010 numbers again. He's not a bad player at all. With his speed and defense he's a useful starter who I think will have a lot of value on the market because of his skill set. I'm not bashing on Stubbs by any means, I just think he brings the Reds more value in a trade than he does actually on the field at this point. <br />
    <br />
    If he doesn't have the value I think he does on the trade market, I have no problem hanging on to him.
    I think a lot of Stubbs value is given to him from the park he plays in. His career home splits are way above his road.

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  8. #67
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    One does have to wonder how long Rolen will be given? He hasn't had a hit since the 23rd. Will Dusty continue to stick with this vet?

    Season line...

    Average is .184, OBP is .243, SLG is .322 (OPS .572) with 3 home runs.

    Now, he has had only 125ish ABs this year, but still. Outside of a couple of games, he's looked dismal offensively. I was glad to at least see him at 7th in the lineup tonight, but really, he should be splitting time with Frazier at this point. Even though I prefer his glove any day of the week over Frazier's, I don't think Frazier has looked horrible at 3B. And as long as he keeps hitting, it's worth having him in the lineup.
    Last edited by fearofpopvol1; 06-30-2012 at 12:55 AM.

  9. #68
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    One does have to wonder how long Rolen will be given? He hasn't had a hit since the 23rd. Will Dusty continue to stick with this vet?

    Season line...

    Average is .184, OBP is .243, SLG is .322 (OPS .572) with 3 home runs.

    Now, he has had only 125ish ABs this year, but still. Outside of a couple of games, he's looked dismal offensively. I was glad to at least see him at 7th in the lineup tonight, but really, he should be splitting time with Frazier at this point. Even though I prefer his glove any day of the week over Frazier's, I don't think Frazier has looked horrible at 3B. And as long as he keeps hitting, it's worth having him in the lineup.
    In his first five games back, he posted over a 1.000 OPS. He has been hitless in his last four starts, but the first of those was the game where the ump was called him out in his first two AB's on pitches way out of the zone, forcing him to swing at bad pitches, then, he faced Greinke, Baumgardner, and Cain.

    I just think it's way too soon to be making any judgements about Rolen.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  10. #69
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    In his first five games back, he posted over a 1.000 OPS. He has been hitless in his last four starts, but the first of those was the game where the ump was called him out in his first two AB's on pitches way out of the zone, forcing him to swing at bad pitches, then, he faced Greinke, Baumgardner, and Cain.

    I just think it's way too soon to be making any judgements about Rolen.
    I think Rolen will call it quits before Dusty has to. Scott has a lot of pride and it wouldn't surprise me if he pulls a Ken Griffey Jr and just walks out of the clubhouse one day

  11. #70
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    In his first five games back, he posted over a 1.000 OPS. He has been hitless in his last four starts, but the first of those was the game where the ump was called him out in his first two AB's on pitches way out of the zone, forcing him to swing at bad pitches, then, he faced Greinke, Baumgardner, and Cain.

    I just think it's way too soon to be making any judgements about Rolen.
    He's been terrible for nearly 2 calender years now. How is it too soon? Dude is toast. I don't even want him to retire. With how bad our bench is I think he'd be great coming off the bench for the rest of the year and then retiring, but he's not an everyday player anymore. He's just not.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  12. #71
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Rolen has value as a PH and late inning defensive replacement, but Frazier needs to be getting 90 percent of the PAs at 3B
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  13. #72
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    In his first five games back, he posted over a 1.000 OPS. He has been hitless in his last four starts, but the first of those was the game where the ump was called him out in his first two AB's on pitches way out of the zone, forcing him to swing at bad pitches, then, he faced Greinke, Baumgardner, and Cain.

    I just think it's way too soon to be making any judgements about Rolen.
    He's been bad for a long time now and this year has been even worse. 125ish PAs is small, but it's not that small when you consider how bad last year was.

  14. #73
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Without the late Rolen scratch, probably a 3-0 shutout for the Giants today. Also a nice pick by Frazier early in the game.

    Frazier continues to impress which is the lone bright spot from today's painful result. Actually we have two, Ludwick continues to be more than adequate out in LF given the lack of other options for the time being.

  15. #74
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Stubbs went 0 for San Francisco. (14 ABs). Anyone want to wager how he finishes the trip?
    Drew has terrible away splits (.648 OPS lifetime). That's approaching Juan Castro territory.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  16. #75
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    Re: Elephant in the Room

    Stubbs isn't any good either.

    *Insert Homer Bailey post about his WAR here*
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.


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