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Thread: The offense.

  1. #1
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    The offense.

    After a lot of gnashing of teeth earlier in the season, the Reds are now 5th in the NL in RS and have two guys in the top 11 in OPS. How worried are you now?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  3. #2
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    After a lot of gnashing of teeth earlier in the season, the Reds are now 5th in the NL in RS and have two guys in the top 11 in OPS. How worried are you now?
    I just keep thinking that with a little tweaking they could be in 1st in RS and have 3 or 4 guys in the top 11 in OPS.

    Seriously though. There's always room for improvement. But some of these guys, like Phillips for instance, were underperforming in relation to their career numbers.

    If it didn't gut the farm system, I'd still be up for upgrading CF and LF, with specifically a tablesetter type guy with a high OBP to bat in front of Votto, and a cleanup hitter to help Joey get even more pitches to hit.
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    Re: The offense.

    I won't repeat the umpteen posts I've written on this. I'm glad the team is hitting better. They are destroying lefty pitching. They are just ok against righty pitching.

    I still think this is a poorly constructed offense. No tablesetters. Need lefty bats. Need another true middle of the order bat.

    But mostly, the Reds have one of baseball's great hitters. They need to structure the offense to give him his best opportunity to put up big numbers. Votto has 45 RBI, he should have many more with his OPS. He needs a better balanced offense around him.

  5. #4
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    But mostly, the Reds have one of baseball's great hitters. They need to structure the offense to give him his best opportunity to put up big numbers. Votto has 45 RBI, he should have many more with his OPS. He needs a better balanced offense around him.
    Absolutely. Batting the rookie leadoff and the up and down Heisey second sometimes leaves Votto with no one to drive in, and that's a shame. I wish Dusty would learn that guys who get on base are mandatory for his super hitter to flourish--as well as the team.
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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: The offense.

    With Rolen back I would put Frazier in LF until Rolen breaks down and bat him second. He's not ideal by any means, but I'd rather his 850 ish OPS higher up.

    Hannigan
    Frazier
    Votto
    Phillips
    Bruce
    Stubbs
    Rolen
    Cozart

    I'd much rather have bruce cleanup but it aint happening
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    Absolutely. Batting the rookie leadoff and the up and down Heisey second sometimes leaves Votto with no one to drive in, and that's a shame. I wish Dusty would learn that guys who get on base are mandatory for his super hitter to flourish--as well as the team.
    WV, I think Dusty does know this. He's limited by his personnel.

    He once hit Hanigan higher in the lineup, years ago, and it didn't go well. So I'm assuming that he feels Ryan is best situated at 8.

    He wanted to hit Phillips lead off, but then Votto was being walked constantly. So he moved Brandon to cleanup.

    But even if I'm wrong, even if Dusty doesn't fully appreciate the issue, he is still limited by his personnel. The OBPs on the team just aren't very good. Ultimately I think Walt needs to add a high OBP player as a starting point.

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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    With Rolen back I would put Frazier in LF until Rolen breaks down and bat him second. He's not ideal by any means, but I'd rather his 850 ish OPS higher up.

    Hannigan
    Frazier
    Votto
    Phillips
    Bruce
    Stubbs
    Rolen
    Cozart

    I'd much rather have bruce cleanup but it aint happening
    I don't see Frazier in the two hole. I think eventually his OBP against righties won't warrant it.

    But your effort there shows how the personnel doesn't add up to an optimal lineup. There really is no true lead off hitter. Phillips would be a great second hitter IMO. But then the middle of the order suffers.

    Put DeJesus in the lineup and then it will fall into place more easily.

  9. #8
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    WV, I think Dusty does know this. He's limited by his personnel.

    He once hit Hanigan higher in the lineup, years ago, and it didn't go well. So I'm assuming that he feels Ryan is best situated at 8.
    I hope that isn't it....

    Code:
    Split 	PA 	AB 	BB 	SO 	BA 	OBP 
    2nd 	10	9	1	1	.222	.300
    3rd 	6	4	2	0	.250	.500
    4th 	1	1	0	0	.000	.000
    5th 	6	3	3	0	.333	.667
    6th 	71	63	7	8	.270	.352
    7th 	272	233	33	25	.313	.396
    8th 	682	592	77	74	.270	.363
    9th 	55	46	8	3	.217	.345
    .... given that he has less than 25 plate appearances higher than 6th in the entire line up in his life.

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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I hope that isn't it....

    Code:
    Split 	PA 	AB 	BB 	SO 	BA 	OBP 
    2nd 	10	9	1	1	.222	.300
    3rd 	6	4	2	0	.250	.500
    4th 	1	1	0	0	.000	.000
    5th 	6	3	3	0	.333	.667
    6th 	71	63	7	8	.270	.352
    7th 	272	233	33	25	.313	.396
    8th 	682	592	77	74	.270	.363
    9th 	55	46	8	3	.217	.345
    .... given that he has less than 25 plate appearances higher than 6th in the entire line up in his life.
    It was a VERY brief trial as I recall, a few years back. Dusty terminated the trial after only a few games. I don't recall where Ryan hit, he didn't do that well. Not sure how it corresponds to your chart.

  11. #10
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    It was a VERY brief trial as I recall, a few years back. Dusty terminated the trial after only a few games. I don't recall where Ryan hit, he didn't do that well. Not sure how it corresponds to your chart.
    It had to be him batting 2nd and it looks like it lasted 2 or 3 games, max.

  12. #11
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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It had to be him batting 2nd and it looks like it lasted 2 or 3 games, max.
    Honestly don't recall the details, but it happened and Dusty snapped him immediately back to the bottom of the order.

    My guess is that if one asked Dusty why Hanigan is hitting eighth now he'll say we tried him up higher it didn't work out.

    But whatever, given the current individual OBPs on the team, it would seem that Ryan should hit ahead of Votto because he would be on base quite a bit.

    Dusty also doesn't think much of Ryan's speed afoot, since he pinch runs Mesoraco for him sometimes in the late innings.

  13. #12
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Honestly don't recall the details, but it happened and Dusty snapped him immediately back to the bottom of the order.

    My guess is that if one asked Dusty why Hanigan is hitting eighth now he'll say we tried him up higher it didn't work out.

    But whatever, given the current individual OBPs on the team, it would seem that Ryan should hit ahead of Votto because he would be on base quite a bit.

    Dusty also doesn't think much of Ryan's speed afoot, since he pinch runs Mesoraco for him sometimes in the late innings.
    My guess is that if you asked Dusty why Hanigan bats eighth he would say that it's because Ryan is comfortable and successful there.

    (And Dusty would be right about Hanigan's lack of speed. He is by far the slowest player on the team.)
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  14. #13
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    Re: The offense.

    It would be better to have a slow guy on base in front of Votto than no guy on base in front of Votto.

    Given that there is obviously nobody on the team that is worthy of batting in the 2-hole in front of Votto, why don't we just bump Votto, Phillips and Bruce up into the 2nd, 3rd and 4th slots in the lineup? At least they would get more at-bats that way.

    Votto's near .500 OBP would be much better utilized coming to the plate with one out instead of 2 outs. When you have low OBP hitters in front of Votto you are not only wasting Votto's ability to drive in runners, you are also wasting his fantastic ability to get on base and score runs. If he gets on base with two outs the Reds have only one shot to bring him around. Batting him earlier in the lineup means he will get on base with 0 or 1 outs instead of 2 outs -- which gives Phillips and Bruce both a chance to bring him around to score.

    I think sometimes people focus too exclusively on Votto's ability to drive in runs and forget about his ability to score runs. Votto is not only a great RBI man (due to his AVG and SLG, both stellar) but he is actually the ideal table-setter as well (due to his sensational OBP). Since the table is rarely set for him we might as well give him the opportunity to set the table for Phillips and Bruce.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 06-20-2012 at 05:22 AM.

  15. #14
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    Re: The offense.

    I'm still concerned with the offense. Lineup construction will never get much better under Dusty. LF and CF are problems right now. Glad they're hitting better as a team but I certainly don't think this offense is good enough to win in October.

  16. #15
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: The offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by kbrake View Post
    I'm still concerned with the offense. Lineup construction will never get much better under Dusty. LF and CF are problems right now. Glad they're hitting better as a team but I certainly don't think this offense is good enough to win in October.
    Me either.
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    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread


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