Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

[dabvu2498]

One racked up TB in an era that lacked power, both played in hitters parks and took advantage of it.

Sandberg was a lot like Dale Murphy with a very high peak and a declining end

The season and a half that Sandberg "retired" had a lot to do with that.

[Cyclone792]

I always thought Grich should have gotten more consideration and that Whitaker should be in. Middle infielders didn't hit that much then (or do they now after the stetoid revolution).

Brandon will be in the Reds Hall of Fame.

What about Utley? Does he have a shot?

I would probably lean on putting Grich and Whitaker in myself. They're the true borderline cases, IMO, and they could go either way, but they should have gotten much more consideration from voters than they did.

Utley's an interesting case. He's got the solid foundation for peak years; his 2005-09 run was very nice. But he also needs to get healthy and put together another 800+ games of solid production, not necessarily as great as he was in his peak but at least another 800 games of a 115 OPS+ or thereabouts. If Utley trails off, he'll sort of remind me of Nomar Garciaparra; great peak but a quick decline far too soon that resulted in subpar career value vs. other Hall of Famers.

[westofyou]

The season and a half that Sandberg "retired" had a lot to do with that.

So we all know why he took it off correct?

To fix his broken marriage... Now why was it broken??

Because teammate Dave Martinez broke it

[Always Red]

So we all know why he took it off correct?

To fix his broken marriage... Now why was it broken??

Because teammate Dave Martinez broke it

Hmmm...and I thought that was Palmeiro.

[camisadelgolf]

I already did. Add Willie Randoph, just off the top of my head.

Willie Randolph spent most of his career with the media-darling Yankees.

[dabvu2498]

So we all know why he took it off correct?

To fix his broken marriage... Now why was it broken??

Well, sorta... He both divorced and remarried in that year and a half off.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7823/index.htm

Four days before the divorce decree, Ryne says, he became engaged to Margaret Koehnemann, whom he describes as a neighborhood friend whose three children also knew Justin and Lindsey.

[Always Red]

So we all know why he took it off correct?

To fix his broken marriage... Now why was it broken??

Because teammate Dave Martinez broke it

After researching this a bit, it's my opinion that the first Mrs. Sandberg broke it.

Palmeiro, Martinez, Mark Grace....

She filed 10 days after he "retired."

[westofyou]

After researching this a bit, it's my opinion that the first Mrs. Sandberg broke it.

Palmeiro, Martinez, Mark Grace....

She filed 10 days after he "retired."

True, she was the constant in all the equations... But dang teammates !

[Always Red]

True, she was the constant in all the equations... But dang teammates !

With "teammates" like that, who needs enemies?

No wonder the Cubs usually sucked.

[Tom Servo]

After researching this a bit, it's my opinion that the first Mrs. Sandberg broke it.

Palmeiro, Martinez, Mark Grace....

She filed 10 days after he "retired."

I just read that she was also with Greg Maddux and Charles Barkley.

[George Anderson]

I just read that she was also with Greg Maddux and Charles Barkley.

Wilt the Stilt was probally in the game somewhere.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I've seen "no way" a few times on BP.

Many I respect on this question have said this, including Cyclone, who I know is up to speed on this kind of topic.




But, just to make things clear:

Grich should be "in" with:

224 HR, 864 RBI, 104 SB .794 OPS (125 OPS+), and 4 gold gloves....over 17 seasons.

But Phillips is a "no way/no chance" with a hypothetical:

250 HR, 1000 RBI, 200 SB, .770 OPS (100 OPS+) and 8 gold gloves....over 13 seasons?

I get if if someone is more impressed with Grich because of his OPS+, but why the huge difference between the two ("should be in" and "no way")? I don't see the huge difference. I think the 8 gold gloves balances out the difference in OPS+.

[kaldaniels]

I've seen "no way" a few times on BP.

Many I respect on this question have said this, including Cyclone, who I know is up to speed on this kind of topic.




But, just to make things clear:

Grich should be "in" with:

224 HR, 864 RBI, 104 SB .794 OPS (125 OPS+), and 4 gold gloves....over 17 seasons.

But Phillips is a "no way/no chance" with a hypothetical:

250 HR, 1000 RBI, 200 SB, .770 OPS (100 OPS+) and 8 gold gloves....over 13 seasons?

I get if if someone is more impressed with Grich because of his OPS+, but why the huge difference between the two ("should be in" and "no way")? I don't see the huge difference. I think the 8 gold gloves balances out the difference in OPS+.

Good topic for discussion, but I can't help but notice the "conservative" awarding of 8 GG to Brandon.

That said, yeah he would need 7-8 more big years to really get in the conversation. He is probably never gonna be "the best" 2B in the game, so he is gonna really need to rely on counting stats...a tough feat at this stage.

[dfs]

Whittaker was a nice player, Sandberg was a stud

somewhere, I suspect it's in one of the historical abstracts, Bill James has an essay where he writes about the dual public perception of Allan Trammell and Lou Whittaker. It's an interesting read that might make you look at this differently.

[westofyou]

I've seen "no way" a few times on BP.

Many I respect on this question have said this, including Cyclone, who I know is up to speed on this kind of topic.




But, just to make things clear:

Grich should be "in" with:

224 HR, 864 RBI, 104 SB .794 OPS (125 OPS+), and 4 gold gloves....over 17 seasons.

But Phillips is a "no way/no chance" with a hypothetical:

250 HR, 1000 RBI, 200 SB, .770 OPS (100 OPS+) and 8 gold gloves....over 13 seasons?

I get if if someone is more impressed with Grich because of his OPS+, but why the huge difference between the two ("should be in" and "no way")? I don't see the huge difference. I think the 8 gold gloves balances out the difference in OPS+.

Grich represents a different era too, he played when most 2nd baseman were stick figures and he was a big guy.

But let's just look at the top 20 in rate stats for 2nd baseman since 1972 (about the time Grich started) make the baseline 4000 PA's so that they are firmly entrenched.

There have been exactly 57 guys, vs only 2b in their own league

CAREER
1972-2011
2B
PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria

OBA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
1    Joe Morgan                 .070     .401     .331     7409   
2    Bobby Grich                .046     .373     .327     7328   
3    Willie Randolph            .045     .373     .328     9462   
4    Chuck Knoblauch            .045     .386     .341     6449   
5    Chase Utley                .039     .377     .338     4778   
6    Roberto Alomar             .034     .371     .337    10400   
7    Lou Whitaker               .033     .363     .330     9967   
8    Craig Biggio               .031     .371     .340     9216   
9    Luis Castillo              .026     .368     .341     7471   
10   Bill Doran                 .026     .354     .329     5922   
11   Jose Vidro                 .022     .365     .343     4568   
12   Brian Roberts              .021     .357     .335     5240   
13   Tom Herr                   .018     .347     .329     6111   
14   Eric Young                 .017     .359     .342     6009   
15   Jeff Kent                  .016     .358     .342     8838   
16   Ryne Sandberg              .016     .347     .331     8589   
17   Delino DeShields           .015     .353     .337     6235   
18   Robinson Cano              .014     .347     .333     4413   
19   Davey Lopes                .013     .345     .332     6365   
20   Placido Polanco            .012     .352     .340     4690   
21   Todd Walker                .011     .352     .341     4601   
22   Tony Bernazard             .011     .339     .328     4243   
23   Ray Durham                 .010     .352     .342     8175   
24   Orlando Hudson             .009     .345     .336     5130   
25   Luis Alicea                .008     .346     .338     4613   
26   Jody Reed                  .008     .342     .334     4194   
27   Joey Cora                  .008     .349     .341     4153   
28   Steve Sax                  .007     .336     .329     7503   
29   Dan Uggla                  .006     .343     .337     4044   
30   Fernando Vina              .005     .348     .343     4742   
31   Mark McLemore              .005     .346     .341     4776   
32   Johnny Ray                 .004     .333     .329     5657   
33   Jerry Remy                 .000     .327     .327     4963   
34   Robby Thompson            -.001     .329     .330     5235   
35   Mickey Morandini          -.001     .338     .339     5135   
36   Dave Cash                 -.001     .331     .332     5221   
37   Glenn Hubbard             -.002     .328     .330     5122   
38   Harold Reynolds           -.003     .327     .330     5398   
39   Mark Ellis                -.003     .331     .334     4582   
40   Damion Easley             -.005     .336     .341     5307   
41   Ron Belliard              -.006     .335     .341     5304   
42   Ron Oester                -.006     .323     .329     4653   
43   Julio Cruz                -.007     .321     .328     4437   
44   Mark Grudzielanek         -.007     .334     .341     4751   
45   Carlos Baerga             -.007     .333     .340     4056   
46   Jim Gantner               -.009     .318     .327     5396   
47   Adam Kennedy              -.010     .328     .338     4858   
48   Ted Sizemore              -.012     .321     .333     4090   
49   Bret Boone                -.014     .325     .339     7432   
50   Brandon Phillips          -.015     .322     .337     4365   
51   Manny Trillo              -.017     .313     .331     5980   
52   Juan Samuel               -.018     .312     .329     5203   
53   Damaso Garcia             -.018     .309     .327     4086   
54   Rich Dauer                -.018     .310     .328     4218   
55   Rennie Stennett           -.028     .304     .332     4645   
56   Jose Lind                 -.034     .295     .329     4000   
57   Frank White               -.034     .293     .328     8316   

OPS                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
1    Joe Morgan                 .126     .845     .719     7409   
2    Chase Utley                .117     .882     .765     4778   
3    Jeff Kent                  .091     .862     .772     8838   
4    Robinson Cano              .088     .843     .754     4413   
5    Bobby Grich                .084     .800     .716     7328   
6    Ryne Sandberg              .078     .805     .727     8589   
7    Dan Uggla                  .063     .824     .761     4044   
8    Roberto Alomar             .061     .814     .754    10400   
9    Lou Whitaker               .059     .789     .730     9967   
10   Craig Biggio               .050     .816     .767     9216   
11   Jose Vidro                 .049     .828     .779     4568   
12   Chuck Knoblauch            .039     .803     .764     6449   
13   Todd Walker                .019     .794     .775     4601   
14   Brian Roberts              .015     .777     .762     5240   
15   Carlos Baerga              .012     .772     .760     4056   
16   Ray Durham                 .011     .787     .776     8175   
17   Juan Samuel                .010     .732     .722     5203   
18   Bill Doran                 .009     .728     .719     5922   
19   Davey Lopes                .006     .728     .722     6365   
20   Robby Thompson             .005     .733     .728     5235   
21   Johnny Ray                 .003     .724     .721     5657   
22   Placido Polanco            .002     .773     .771     4690   
23   Willie Randolph            .001     .724     .723     9462   
24   Orlando Hudson             .001     .762     .762     5130   
25   Bret Boone                 .000     .767     .767     7432   
26   Tony Bernazard            -.005     .726     .730     4243   
27   Brandon Phillips          -.005     .755     .761     4365   
28   Eric Young                -.020     .750     .770     6009   
29   Damion Easley             -.021     .751     .773     5307   
30   Delino DeShields          -.022     .731     .753     6235   
31   Tom Herr                  -.023     .696     .719     6111   
32   Steve Sax                 -.024     .694     .718     7503   
33   Ron Belliard              -.028     .747     .776     5304   
34   Mark Ellis                -.029     .728     .756     4582   
35   Dave Cash                 -.032     .686     .719     5221   
36   Ron Oester                -.038     .679     .717     4653   
37   Mark Grudzielanek         -.041     .732     .773     4751   
38   Luis Alicea               -.044     .715     .759     4613   
39   Glenn Hubbard             -.044     .677     .721     5122   
40   Damaso Garcia             -.044     .681     .725     4086   
41   Joey Cora                 -.045     .720     .765     4153   
42   Frank White               -.045     .678     .723     8316   
43   Fernando Vina             -.049     .728     .777     4742   
44   Luis Castillo             -.054     .719     .773     7471   
45   Adam Kennedy              -.057     .712     .769     4858   
46   Jody Reed                 -.058     .684     .741     4194   
47   Jim Gantner               -.058     .665     .723     5396   
48   Rennie Stennett           -.059     .659     .718     4645   
49   Harold Reynolds           -.061     .668     .729     5398   
50   Jerry Remy                -.062     .656     .717     4963   
51   Mickey Morandini          -.063     .697     .759     5135   
52   Manny Trillo              -.064     .654     .719     5980   
53   Rich Dauer                -.072     .653     .725     4218   
54   Ted Sizemore              -.087     .635     .722     4090   
55   Mark McLemore             -.096     .672     .769     4776   
56   Julio Cruz                -.106     .620     .725     4437   
57   Jose Lind                 -.112     .610     .722     4000   

RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
1    Joe Morgan                 2.86     7.32     4.46     7409   
2    Chase Utley                2.31     7.39     5.08     4778   
3    Ryne Sandberg              1.24     5.82     4.57     8589   
4    Chuck Knoblauch            1.24     6.31     5.07     6449   
5    Roberto Alomar             1.22     6.16     4.93    10400   
6    Bobby Grich                1.20     5.56     4.36     7328   
7    Craig Biggio               1.16     6.27     5.11     9216   
8    Jeff Kent                  1.11     6.31     5.19     8838   
9    Lou Whitaker               1.09     5.64     4.56     9967   
10   Robinson Cano              0.95     5.85     4.90     4413   
11   Dan Uggla                  0.82     5.84     5.03     4044   
12   Jose Vidro                 0.73     6.01     5.28     4568   
13   Brian Roberts              0.70     5.71     5.01     5240   
14   Davey Lopes                0.50     5.01     4.51     6365   
15   Willie Randolph            0.40     4.86     4.46     9462   
16   Bill Doran                 0.40     4.87     4.47     5922   
17   Todd Walker                0.31     5.52     5.21     4601   
18   Ray Durham                 0.26     5.49     5.24     8175   
19   Placido Polanco            0.14     5.29     5.15     4690   
20   Carlos Baerga              0.06     5.07     5.01     4056   
21   Tony Bernazard             0.06     4.60     4.54     4243   
22   Juan Samuel                0.03     4.54     4.52     5203   
23   Delino DeShields           0.02     4.96     4.94     6235   
24   Johnny Ray                 0.01     4.49     4.47     5657   
25   Tom Herr                   -.01     4.47     4.47     6111   
26   Eric Young                 -.01     5.16     5.17     6009   
27   Robby Thompson             -.04     4.56     4.60     5235   
28   Orlando Hudson             -.05     4.97     5.02     5130   
29   Steve Sax                  -.18     4.26     4.44     7503   
30   Bret Boone                 -.26     4.85     5.11     7432   
31   Mark Ellis                 -.32     4.61     4.93     4582   
32   Luis Castillo              -.34     4.85     5.19     7471   
33   Dave Cash                  -.36     4.12     4.48     5221   
34   Damion Easley              -.37     4.81     5.18     5307   
35   Joey Cora                  -.41     4.67     5.08     4153   
36   Brandon Phillips           -.42     4.60     5.01     4365   
37   Luis Alicea                -.45     4.57     5.01     4613   
38   Fernando Vina              -.46     4.79     5.25     4742   
39   Ron Belliard               -.51     4.72     5.23     5304   
40   Glenn Hubbard              -.56     3.93     4.49     5122   
41   Damaso Garcia              -.58     3.90     4.48     4086   
42   Mark Grudzielanek          -.58     4.60     5.18     4751   
43   Jerry Remy                 -.64     3.74     4.38     4963   
44   Ron Oester                 -.65     3.79     4.44     4653   
45   Harold Reynolds            -.68     3.87     4.55     5398   
46   Jim Gantner                -.70     3.76     4.46     5396   
47   Frank White                -.71     3.74     4.46     8316   
48   Adam Kennedy               -.72     4.40     5.11     4858   
49   Mickey Morandini           -.72     4.31     5.03     5135   
50   Jody Reed                  -.76     3.98     4.74     4194   
51   Julio Cruz                 -.79     3.69     4.48     4437   
52   Rennie Stennett            -.93     3.54     4.47     4645   
53   Manny Trillo               -.94     3.53     4.47     5980   
54   Rich Dauer                -1.03     3.45     4.47     4218   
55   Mark McLemore             -1.08     4.06     5.14     4776   
56   Ted Sizemore              -1.17     3.33     4.51     4090   
57   Jose Lind                 -1.49     3.03     4.52     4000   

SLG                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
1    Chase Utley                .078     .505     .427     4778   
2    Robinson Cano              .075     .496     .421     4413   
3    Jeff Kent                  .074     .505     .430     8838   
4    Ryne Sandberg              .062     .458     .396     8589   
5    Dan Uggla                  .058     .482     .424     4044   
6    Joe Morgan                 .056     .444     .388     7409   
7    Bobby Grich                .038     .427     .389     7328   
8    Juan Samuel                .028     .420     .393     5203   
9    Jose Vidro                 .027     .463     .436     4568   
10   Roberto Alomar             .026     .443     .417    10400   
11   Lou Whitaker               .026     .426     .400     9967   
12   Carlos Baerga              .020     .439     .420     4056   
13   Craig Biggio               .019     .445     .426     9216   
14   Bret Boone                 .014     .442     .428     7432   
15   Brandon Phillips           .010     .434     .424     4365   
16   Todd Walker                .008     .442     .434     4601   
17   Robby Thompson             .006     .403     .397     5235   
18   Ray Durham                 .001     .435     .434     8175   
19   Johnny Ray                -.001     .391     .391     5657   
20   Brian Roberts             -.006     .421     .427     5240   
21   Chuck Knoblauch           -.006     .417     .423     6449   
22   Davey Lopes               -.007     .383     .390     6365   
23   Orlando Hudson            -.008     .417     .426     5130   
24   Placido Polanco           -.010     .421     .431     4690   
25   Frank White               -.011     .385     .396     8316   
26   Tony Bernazard            -.015     .387     .402     4243   
27   Damion Easley             -.016     .416     .431     5307   
28   Bill Doran                -.017     .373     .390     5922   
29   Ron Belliard              -.023     .412     .434     5304   
30   Mark Ellis                -.026     .397     .423     4582   
31   Damaso Garcia             -.026     .372     .398     4086   
32   Dave Cash                 -.031     .356     .387     5221   
33   Steve Sax                 -.031     .359     .390     7503   
34   Rennie Stennett           -.031     .355     .386     4645   
35   Ron Oester                -.032     .356     .388     4653   
36   Mark Grudzielanek         -.034     .398     .432     4751   
37   Delino DeShields          -.037     .379     .415     6235   
38   Eric Young                -.037     .391     .428     6009   
39   Tom Herr                  -.040     .350     .390     6111   
40   Glenn Hubbard             -.041     .349     .391     5122   
41   Willie Randolph           -.044     .351     .395     9462   
42   Manny Trillo              -.047     .341     .388     5980   
43   Adam Kennedy              -.047     .384     .431     4858   
44   Jim Gantner               -.049     .348     .397     5396   
45   Luis Alicea               -.052     .369     .421     4613   
46   Joey Cora                 -.053     .371     .424     4153   
47   Fernando Vina             -.054     .379     .434     4742   
48   Rich Dauer                -.054     .343     .397     4218   
49   Harold Reynolds           -.058     .341     .399     5398   
50   Mickey Morandini          -.061     .359     .420     5135   
51   Jerry Remy                -.062     .328     .390     4963   
52   Jody Reed                 -.066     .341     .407     4194   
53   Ted Sizemore              -.075     .314     .389     4090   
54   Jose Lind                 -.078     .316     .393     4000   
55   Luis Castillo             -.081     .351     .432     7471   
56   Julio Cruz                -.099     .299     .397     4437   
57   Mark McLemore             -.101     .326     .428     4776