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Thread: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

  1. #136
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Bobby Grich? What am I missing? The only thing that separates him from your average mlb middle infielder is his awesome mustache.
    I kinda thought the same thing years ago till I read more on Grich's career and found he was very underrated. Here is a good article on his career.

    http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_18726708

    Here is a very good book by Bill James about the HOF. It changed alot of my thinking about the players that have been and have not been inducted. I think James is a supporter of Grich being inducted. I know he also supports Ted Simmons and Joe Torre the player which before I read the book would have made me laugh, but he makes a strong case why.

    http://www.amazon.com/Whatever-Happe...e+hall+of+fame
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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  3. #137
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    I kinda thought the same thing years ago till I read more on Grich's career and found he was very underrated. Here is a good article on his career.

    http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_18726708

    Here is a very good book by Bill James about the HOF. It changed alot of my thinking about the players that have been and have not been inducted. I think James is a supporter of Grich being inducted. I know he also supports Ted Simmons and Joe Torre the player which before I read the book would have made me laugh, but he makes a strong case why.

    http://www.amazon.com/Whatever-Happe...e+hall+of+fame
    So Grich has a few offensive numbers that are better than the worst HOFer (by far)? You'd have to build a new wing in Cooperstown for all the second basemen who fit that criteria. At least Simmons and Torre were outstanding offensive players at the game's most difficult position. And Torre did have an MVP and a batting title.

  4. #138
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    So Grich has a few offensive numbers that are better than the worst HOFer (by far)? You'd have to build a new wing in Cooperstown for all the second basemen who fit that criteria. At least Simmons and Torre were outstanding offensive players at the game's most difficult position. And Torre did have an MVP and a batting title.
    I posted this earlier in this thread (last year). It just kind of gives you an idea of where Grich stands among the best at 2B.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Comparing recent inductees or soon-to-be (Sandberg, Alomar, and Biggio) to Whitaker, Grich and Randolph. I have included career OPS+, WAR, and dWAR, along with popularity (FAME) accomplishments (MVP, All-Star games, Gold Gloves) as well as counting stats (HR, RBI, H, SB, to go along with BA) in games played at Second Base.


    -Ryne Sandberg (1981-1997) = 114 OPS+, WAR 64.9, MVP x 1, Top 5 MVP x 3, AS x 10, GG x 9, dWAR 12.8, 1982 G @ 2B (92% games played)…..O stats @ 2B: 277 HR, 1007 RBI, 2225 H, 310 SB, .285 BA).

    -Roberto Alomar (1988-2004) = 116 OPS+, WAR 62.9, Top 5 MVP x 2, AS x 12, GG x 10, dWAR 2.4, 2304 G @ 2B (97% games played)…..O stats @ 2B: 207 HR, 1107 RBI, 2687 H, 470 SB, .301 BA).

    -Craig Biggio (1988-2007) = 112 OPS+, WAR 62.1, Top 5 MVP x 2, AS x 7, GG x 4, dWAR -3.8, 1978 G @ 2B (69% games played)…..O stats @ 2B: 226 HR, 883 RBI, 2230 H, 321 SB, .285 BA).

    -Lou Whitaker (1977-1995) = 117 OPS+, WAR 71.4, AS x 5, GG x 3, dWAR 15.4, 2228 G @ 2B (93% games played)…..O stats @ 2B: 239 HR, 1041 RBI, 2312 H, 140 SB, .277 BA).

    -Bobby Grich (1970-1986) = 125 OPS+, WAR 67.3, AS x 6, GG x 4, dWAR 16.2, 1740 G @ 2B (87% games played)…..O stats @ 2B: 197 HR, 753 RBI, 1609 H, 85 SB, .267 BA).

    -Willie Randolph (1975-1992) = 104 OPS+, WAR 63, AS x 6, GG x 0, dWAR 19.4, 2132 G @ 2B (97% games played)…..O stats @ 2B: 54 HR, 679 RBI, 2190 H, 269 SB, .276 BA).

    -Grich and Whitaker lead everyone in OPS+ and WAR.

    -Randolph (19.4), Grich (16.2), and Whitaker (15.4) lead all in dWAR (Defensive WAR).

    -Sandberg and Alomar dominate the popularity contest of All Star games and Gold Gloves.

    -Shocking that Randolph never won a GG, but he lost out to Grich ('75, '76), White ('77-'82, '86, '87), and Whitaker ('83-'85). Towards the end of his career Harold Reynolds ('88-'90) won a few and then Alomar took over ('91-'96, '98-'01).


    Top Second Basemen by dWAR (Career Defensive WAR/HOF in bold):

    Bill Mazerowski (1956-1972) = dWAR 23.8 (GG x 8)
    Joe Gordon (1938-1950) = dWAR 22.4
    Frankie Frisch (1919-1937) = dWAR 21.6
    Frank White (1973-1990) = dWAR 21.4 (GG x 8)
    Nellie Fox (1947-1965) = dWAR 20.9
    Willie Randolph (1975-1992) = dWAR 19.4 (GG x 0)
    Bobby Grich (1970-1986) = dWAR 16.2 (GG x 4)
    Bid McPhee (1882-1899) = dWAR 16.2
    Chase Utley (1882-1899) = dWAR 16.2
    Johnny Evers (1902-1929) = dWAR 15.4
    Lou Whitaker (1977-1995) = dWAR 15.4 (GG x 3)
    Red Schoendienst (1945-1963) = dWAR 15.2
    Mark Ellis (2002-) = dWAR 14.3 (GG x 0)
    Gil McDougald (1951-1960, 1336 G) = dWAR 14.0
    Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937) dWAR 13.9
    Bobby Doerr (1937-1951) = dWAR 13.4
    Lonny Frey (1933-1948, 1535 G) = dWAR 13.3
    Ryne Sandberg (1981-1997) = dWAR 12.8
    Charlie Gehringer (1924-1942) = dWAR 10.7
    Nap Lajoie (1896-1916) = dWAR 10.1
    Jackie Robinson (1947-1956) = dWAR 10.0

  5. #139
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Grich and his 2.4% HOF vote total fared worse than Whitaker.

    I don't think Phillips charisma and defensive theatrics will be enough to get him in. Even if one day he does match up to or even exceedes Grich and Whitaker statistically, keep in mind they couldn't even get 3% of the vote. No amount of charisma or other intangibles will carry Phillips over the hump to get the needed 75% IMO.

    I didn't realize Grich was low. I'm sure it being so long ago (less SABR info) was the reason too. Heck, I know it's a different position, but if Larkin was up for the vote in that same time period as Grich and Whitaker, he might not have gotten in at all. I'm sure he wouldn't have received so low of a percentage as those two, but he might have had to wait a very long time or not gotten in at all.

    I would bet if Grich and Whitaker were put up again today they would get a higher percentage and quite possibly even receive enough to continue to make the ballot for a few years (if not the maximum 15 years), especially Whitaker. I think the average voter today is a little more sophisticated. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but the explosion of the internet and the wealth of information available now makes me wonder.

    As far as Phillips is concerned, his charisma may not be enough, but it certainly was enough for a weak hitting Ozzie Smith. Different position, I know, but his glove transcended anything his bat did. He and Mazerowski seem to be the poster boys for all glove and no bat with a bunch of hype.


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