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Thread: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

  1. #46
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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    One racked up TB in an era that lacked power, both played in hitters parks and took advantage of it.

    Sandberg was a lot like Dale Murphy with a very high peak and a declining end
    The season and a half that Sandberg "retired" had a lot to do with that.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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  3. #47
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    I always thought Grich should have gotten more consideration and that Whitaker should be in. Middle infielders didn't hit that much then (or do they now after the stetoid revolution).

    Brandon will be in the Reds Hall of Fame.

    What about Utley? Does he have a shot?
    I would probably lean on putting Grich and Whitaker in myself. They're the true borderline cases, IMO, and they could go either way, but they should have gotten much more consideration from voters than they did.

    Utley's an interesting case. He's got the solid foundation for peak years; his 2005-09 run was very nice. But he also needs to get healthy and put together another 800+ games of solid production, not necessarily as great as he was in his peak but at least another 800 games of a 115 OPS+ or thereabouts. If Utley trails off, he'll sort of remind me of Nomar Garciaparra; great peak but a quick decline far too soon that resulted in subpar career value vs. other Hall of Famers.
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  4. #48
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    The season and a half that Sandberg "retired" had a lot to do with that.
    So we all know why he took it off correct?

    To fix his broken marriage... Now why was it broken??

    Because teammate Dave Martinez broke it

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    So we all know why he took it off correct?

    To fix his broken marriage... Now why was it broken??

    Because teammate Dave Martinez broke it
    Hmmm...and I thought that was Palmeiro.

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I already did. Add Willie Randoph, just off the top of my head.
    Willie Randolph spent most of his career with the media-darling Yankees.

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    So we all know why he took it off correct?

    To fix his broken marriage... Now why was it broken??
    Well, sorta... He both divorced and remarried in that year and a half off.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7823/index.htm

    Four days before the divorce decree, Ryne says, he became engaged to Margaret Koehnemann, whom he describes as a neighborhood friend whose three children also knew Justin and Lindsey.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    So we all know why he took it off correct?

    To fix his broken marriage... Now why was it broken??

    Because teammate Dave Martinez broke it
    After researching this a bit, it's my opinion that the first Mrs. Sandberg broke it.

    Palmeiro, Martinez, Mark Grace....

    She filed 10 days after he "retired."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    After researching this a bit, it's my opinion that the first Mrs. Sandberg broke it.

    Palmeiro, Martinez, Mark Grace....

    She filed 10 days after he "retired."
    True, she was the constant in all the equations... But dang teammates !

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    True, she was the constant in all the equations... But dang teammates !
    With "teammates" like that, who needs enemies?

    No wonder the Cubs usually sucked.

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    After researching this a bit, it's my opinion that the first Mrs. Sandberg broke it.

    Palmeiro, Martinez, Mark Grace....

    She filed 10 days after he "retired."
    I just read that she was also with Greg Maddux and Charles Barkley.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I just read that she was also with Greg Maddux and Charles Barkley.
    Wilt the Stilt was probally in the game somewhere.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    I've seen "no way" a few times on BP.

    Many I respect on this question have said this, including Cyclone, who I know is up to speed on this kind of topic.




    But, just to make things clear:

    Grich should be "in" with:

    224 HR, 864 RBI, 104 SB .794 OPS (125 OPS+), and 4 gold gloves....over 17 seasons.

    But Phillips is a "no way/no chance" with a hypothetical:

    250 HR, 1000 RBI, 200 SB, .770 OPS (100 OPS+) and 8 gold gloves....over 13 seasons?

    I get if if someone is more impressed with Grich because of his OPS+, but why the huge difference between the two ("should be in" and "no way")? I don't see the huge difference. I think the 8 gold gloves balances out the difference in OPS+.
    Last edited by BuckeyeRedleg; 06-19-2012 at 11:26 PM.

  14. #58
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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    I've seen "no way" a few times on BP.

    Many I respect on this question have said this, including Cyclone, who I know is up to speed on this kind of topic.




    But, just to make things clear:

    Grich should be "in" with:

    224 HR, 864 RBI, 104 SB .794 OPS (125 OPS+), and 4 gold gloves....over 17 seasons.

    But Phillips is a "no way/no chance" with a hypothetical:

    250 HR, 1000 RBI, 200 SB, .770 OPS (100 OPS+) and 8 gold gloves....over 13 seasons?

    I get if if someone is more impressed with Grich because of his OPS+, but why the huge difference between the two ("should be in" and "no way")? I don't see the huge difference. I think the 8 gold gloves balances out the difference in OPS+.
    Good topic for discussion, but I can't help but notice the "conservative" awarding of 8 GG to Brandon.

    That said, yeah he would need 7-8 more big years to really get in the conversation. He is probably never gonna be "the best" 2B in the game, so he is gonna really need to rely on counting stats...a tough feat at this stage.

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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Whittaker was a nice player, Sandberg was a stud
    somewhere, I suspect it's in one of the historical abstracts, Bill James has an essay where he writes about the dual public perception of Allan Trammell and Lou Whittaker. It's an interesting read that might make you look at this differently.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  16. #60
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    Re: Brandon Phillips......future Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    I've seen "no way" a few times on BP.

    Many I respect on this question have said this, including Cyclone, who I know is up to speed on this kind of topic.




    But, just to make things clear:

    Grich should be "in" with:

    224 HR, 864 RBI, 104 SB .794 OPS (125 OPS+), and 4 gold gloves....over 17 seasons.

    But Phillips is a "no way/no chance" with a hypothetical:

    250 HR, 1000 RBI, 200 SB, .770 OPS (100 OPS+) and 8 gold gloves....over 13 seasons?

    I get if if someone is more impressed with Grich because of his OPS+, but why the huge difference between the two ("should be in" and "no way")? I don't see the huge difference. I think the 8 gold gloves balances out the difference in OPS+.
    Grich represents a different era too, he played when most 2nd baseman were stick figures and he was a big guy.

    But let's just look at the top 20 in rate stats for 2nd baseman since 1972 (about the time Grich started) make the baseline 4000 PA's so that they are firmly entrenched.

    There have been exactly 57 guys, vs only 2b in their own league


    Code:
    CAREER
    1972-2011
    2B
    PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    OBA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
    1    Joe Morgan                 .070     .401     .331     7409   
    2    Bobby Grich                .046     .373     .327     7328   
    3    Willie Randolph            .045     .373     .328     9462   
    4    Chuck Knoblauch            .045     .386     .341     6449   
    5    Chase Utley                .039     .377     .338     4778   
    6    Roberto Alomar             .034     .371     .337    10400   
    7    Lou Whitaker               .033     .363     .330     9967   
    8    Craig Biggio               .031     .371     .340     9216   
    9    Luis Castillo              .026     .368     .341     7471   
    10   Bill Doran                 .026     .354     .329     5922   
    11   Jose Vidro                 .022     .365     .343     4568   
    12   Brian Roberts              .021     .357     .335     5240   
    13   Tom Herr                   .018     .347     .329     6111   
    14   Eric Young                 .017     .359     .342     6009   
    15   Jeff Kent                  .016     .358     .342     8838   
    16   Ryne Sandberg              .016     .347     .331     8589   
    17   Delino DeShields           .015     .353     .337     6235   
    18   Robinson Cano              .014     .347     .333     4413   
    19   Davey Lopes                .013     .345     .332     6365   
    20   Placido Polanco            .012     .352     .340     4690   
    21   Todd Walker                .011     .352     .341     4601   
    22   Tony Bernazard             .011     .339     .328     4243   
    23   Ray Durham                 .010     .352     .342     8175   
    24   Orlando Hudson             .009     .345     .336     5130   
    25   Luis Alicea                .008     .346     .338     4613   
    26   Jody Reed                  .008     .342     .334     4194   
    27   Joey Cora                  .008     .349     .341     4153   
    28   Steve Sax                  .007     .336     .329     7503   
    29   Dan Uggla                  .006     .343     .337     4044   
    30   Fernando Vina              .005     .348     .343     4742   
    31   Mark McLemore              .005     .346     .341     4776   
    32   Johnny Ray                 .004     .333     .329     5657   
    33   Jerry Remy                 .000     .327     .327     4963   
    34   Robby Thompson            -.001     .329     .330     5235   
    35   Mickey Morandini          -.001     .338     .339     5135   
    36   Dave Cash                 -.001     .331     .332     5221   
    37   Glenn Hubbard             -.002     .328     .330     5122   
    38   Harold Reynolds           -.003     .327     .330     5398   
    39   Mark Ellis                -.003     .331     .334     4582   
    40   Damion Easley             -.005     .336     .341     5307   
    41   Ron Belliard              -.006     .335     .341     5304   
    42   Ron Oester                -.006     .323     .329     4653   
    43   Julio Cruz                -.007     .321     .328     4437   
    44   Mark Grudzielanek         -.007     .334     .341     4751   
    45   Carlos Baerga             -.007     .333     .340     4056   
    46   Jim Gantner               -.009     .318     .327     5396   
    47   Adam Kennedy              -.010     .328     .338     4858   
    48   Ted Sizemore              -.012     .321     .333     4090   
    49   Bret Boone                -.014     .325     .339     7432   
    50   Brandon Phillips          -.015     .322     .337     4365   
    51   Manny Trillo              -.017     .313     .331     5980   
    52   Juan Samuel               -.018     .312     .329     5203   
    53   Damaso Garcia             -.018     .309     .327     4086   
    54   Rich Dauer                -.018     .310     .328     4218   
    55   Rennie Stennett           -.028     .304     .332     4645   
    56   Jose Lind                 -.034     .295     .329     4000   
    57   Frank White               -.034     .293     .328     8316   
    
    OPS                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
    1    Joe Morgan                 .126     .845     .719     7409   
    2    Chase Utley                .117     .882     .765     4778   
    3    Jeff Kent                  .091     .862     .772     8838   
    4    Robinson Cano              .088     .843     .754     4413   
    5    Bobby Grich                .084     .800     .716     7328   
    6    Ryne Sandberg              .078     .805     .727     8589   
    7    Dan Uggla                  .063     .824     .761     4044   
    8    Roberto Alomar             .061     .814     .754    10400   
    9    Lou Whitaker               .059     .789     .730     9967   
    10   Craig Biggio               .050     .816     .767     9216   
    11   Jose Vidro                 .049     .828     .779     4568   
    12   Chuck Knoblauch            .039     .803     .764     6449   
    13   Todd Walker                .019     .794     .775     4601   
    14   Brian Roberts              .015     .777     .762     5240   
    15   Carlos Baerga              .012     .772     .760     4056   
    16   Ray Durham                 .011     .787     .776     8175   
    17   Juan Samuel                .010     .732     .722     5203   
    18   Bill Doran                 .009     .728     .719     5922   
    19   Davey Lopes                .006     .728     .722     6365   
    20   Robby Thompson             .005     .733     .728     5235   
    21   Johnny Ray                 .003     .724     .721     5657   
    22   Placido Polanco            .002     .773     .771     4690   
    23   Willie Randolph            .001     .724     .723     9462   
    24   Orlando Hudson             .001     .762     .762     5130   
    25   Bret Boone                 .000     .767     .767     7432   
    26   Tony Bernazard            -.005     .726     .730     4243   
    27   Brandon Phillips          -.005     .755     .761     4365   
    28   Eric Young                -.020     .750     .770     6009   
    29   Damion Easley             -.021     .751     .773     5307   
    30   Delino DeShields          -.022     .731     .753     6235   
    31   Tom Herr                  -.023     .696     .719     6111   
    32   Steve Sax                 -.024     .694     .718     7503   
    33   Ron Belliard              -.028     .747     .776     5304   
    34   Mark Ellis                -.029     .728     .756     4582   
    35   Dave Cash                 -.032     .686     .719     5221   
    36   Ron Oester                -.038     .679     .717     4653   
    37   Mark Grudzielanek         -.041     .732     .773     4751   
    38   Luis Alicea               -.044     .715     .759     4613   
    39   Glenn Hubbard             -.044     .677     .721     5122   
    40   Damaso Garcia             -.044     .681     .725     4086   
    41   Joey Cora                 -.045     .720     .765     4153   
    42   Frank White               -.045     .678     .723     8316   
    43   Fernando Vina             -.049     .728     .777     4742   
    44   Luis Castillo             -.054     .719     .773     7471   
    45   Adam Kennedy              -.057     .712     .769     4858   
    46   Jody Reed                 -.058     .684     .741     4194   
    47   Jim Gantner               -.058     .665     .723     5396   
    48   Rennie Stennett           -.059     .659     .718     4645   
    49   Harold Reynolds           -.061     .668     .729     5398   
    50   Jerry Remy                -.062     .656     .717     4963   
    51   Mickey Morandini          -.063     .697     .759     5135   
    52   Manny Trillo              -.064     .654     .719     5980   
    53   Rich Dauer                -.072     .653     .725     4218   
    54   Ted Sizemore              -.087     .635     .722     4090   
    55   Mark McLemore             -.096     .672     .769     4776   
    56   Julio Cruz                -.106     .620     .725     4437   
    57   Jose Lind                 -.112     .610     .722     4000   
    
    RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
    1    Joe Morgan                 2.86     7.32     4.46     7409   
    2    Chase Utley                2.31     7.39     5.08     4778   
    3    Ryne Sandberg              1.24     5.82     4.57     8589   
    4    Chuck Knoblauch            1.24     6.31     5.07     6449   
    5    Roberto Alomar             1.22     6.16     4.93    10400   
    6    Bobby Grich                1.20     5.56     4.36     7328   
    7    Craig Biggio               1.16     6.27     5.11     9216   
    8    Jeff Kent                  1.11     6.31     5.19     8838   
    9    Lou Whitaker               1.09     5.64     4.56     9967   
    10   Robinson Cano              0.95     5.85     4.90     4413   
    11   Dan Uggla                  0.82     5.84     5.03     4044   
    12   Jose Vidro                 0.73     6.01     5.28     4568   
    13   Brian Roberts              0.70     5.71     5.01     5240   
    14   Davey Lopes                0.50     5.01     4.51     6365   
    15   Willie Randolph            0.40     4.86     4.46     9462   
    16   Bill Doran                 0.40     4.87     4.47     5922   
    17   Todd Walker                0.31     5.52     5.21     4601   
    18   Ray Durham                 0.26     5.49     5.24     8175   
    19   Placido Polanco            0.14     5.29     5.15     4690   
    20   Carlos Baerga              0.06     5.07     5.01     4056   
    21   Tony Bernazard             0.06     4.60     4.54     4243   
    22   Juan Samuel                0.03     4.54     4.52     5203   
    23   Delino DeShields           0.02     4.96     4.94     6235   
    24   Johnny Ray                 0.01     4.49     4.47     5657   
    25   Tom Herr                   -.01     4.47     4.47     6111   
    26   Eric Young                 -.01     5.16     5.17     6009   
    27   Robby Thompson             -.04     4.56     4.60     5235   
    28   Orlando Hudson             -.05     4.97     5.02     5130   
    29   Steve Sax                  -.18     4.26     4.44     7503   
    30   Bret Boone                 -.26     4.85     5.11     7432   
    31   Mark Ellis                 -.32     4.61     4.93     4582   
    32   Luis Castillo              -.34     4.85     5.19     7471   
    33   Dave Cash                  -.36     4.12     4.48     5221   
    34   Damion Easley              -.37     4.81     5.18     5307   
    35   Joey Cora                  -.41     4.67     5.08     4153   
    36   Brandon Phillips           -.42     4.60     5.01     4365   
    37   Luis Alicea                -.45     4.57     5.01     4613   
    38   Fernando Vina              -.46     4.79     5.25     4742   
    39   Ron Belliard               -.51     4.72     5.23     5304   
    40   Glenn Hubbard              -.56     3.93     4.49     5122   
    41   Damaso Garcia              -.58     3.90     4.48     4086   
    42   Mark Grudzielanek          -.58     4.60     5.18     4751   
    43   Jerry Remy                 -.64     3.74     4.38     4963   
    44   Ron Oester                 -.65     3.79     4.44     4653   
    45   Harold Reynolds            -.68     3.87     4.55     5398   
    46   Jim Gantner                -.70     3.76     4.46     5396   
    47   Frank White                -.71     3.74     4.46     8316   
    48   Adam Kennedy               -.72     4.40     5.11     4858   
    49   Mickey Morandini           -.72     4.31     5.03     5135   
    50   Jody Reed                  -.76     3.98     4.74     4194   
    51   Julio Cruz                 -.79     3.69     4.48     4437   
    52   Rennie Stennett            -.93     3.54     4.47     4645   
    53   Manny Trillo               -.94     3.53     4.47     5980   
    54   Rich Dauer                -1.03     3.45     4.47     4218   
    55   Mark McLemore             -1.08     4.06     5.14     4776   
    56   Ted Sizemore              -1.17     3.33     4.51     4090   
    57   Jose Lind                 -1.49     3.03     4.52     4000   
    
    SLG                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
    1    Chase Utley                .078     .505     .427     4778   
    2    Robinson Cano              .075     .496     .421     4413   
    3    Jeff Kent                  .074     .505     .430     8838   
    4    Ryne Sandberg              .062     .458     .396     8589   
    5    Dan Uggla                  .058     .482     .424     4044   
    6    Joe Morgan                 .056     .444     .388     7409   
    7    Bobby Grich                .038     .427     .389     7328   
    8    Juan Samuel                .028     .420     .393     5203   
    9    Jose Vidro                 .027     .463     .436     4568   
    10   Roberto Alomar             .026     .443     .417    10400   
    11   Lou Whitaker               .026     .426     .400     9967   
    12   Carlos Baerga              .020     .439     .420     4056   
    13   Craig Biggio               .019     .445     .426     9216   
    14   Bret Boone                 .014     .442     .428     7432   
    15   Brandon Phillips           .010     .434     .424     4365   
    16   Todd Walker                .008     .442     .434     4601   
    17   Robby Thompson             .006     .403     .397     5235   
    18   Ray Durham                 .001     .435     .434     8175   
    19   Johnny Ray                -.001     .391     .391     5657   
    20   Brian Roberts             -.006     .421     .427     5240   
    21   Chuck Knoblauch           -.006     .417     .423     6449   
    22   Davey Lopes               -.007     .383     .390     6365   
    23   Orlando Hudson            -.008     .417     .426     5130   
    24   Placido Polanco           -.010     .421     .431     4690   
    25   Frank White               -.011     .385     .396     8316   
    26   Tony Bernazard            -.015     .387     .402     4243   
    27   Damion Easley             -.016     .416     .431     5307   
    28   Bill Doran                -.017     .373     .390     5922   
    29   Ron Belliard              -.023     .412     .434     5304   
    30   Mark Ellis                -.026     .397     .423     4582   
    31   Damaso Garcia             -.026     .372     .398     4086   
    32   Dave Cash                 -.031     .356     .387     5221   
    33   Steve Sax                 -.031     .359     .390     7503   
    34   Rennie Stennett           -.031     .355     .386     4645   
    35   Ron Oester                -.032     .356     .388     4653   
    36   Mark Grudzielanek         -.034     .398     .432     4751   
    37   Delino DeShields          -.037     .379     .415     6235   
    38   Eric Young                -.037     .391     .428     6009   
    39   Tom Herr                  -.040     .350     .390     6111   
    40   Glenn Hubbard             -.041     .349     .391     5122   
    41   Willie Randolph           -.044     .351     .395     9462   
    42   Manny Trillo              -.047     .341     .388     5980   
    43   Adam Kennedy              -.047     .384     .431     4858   
    44   Jim Gantner               -.049     .348     .397     5396   
    45   Luis Alicea               -.052     .369     .421     4613   
    46   Joey Cora                 -.053     .371     .424     4153   
    47   Fernando Vina             -.054     .379     .434     4742   
    48   Rich Dauer                -.054     .343     .397     4218   
    49   Harold Reynolds           -.058     .341     .399     5398   
    50   Mickey Morandini          -.061     .359     .420     5135   
    51   Jerry Remy                -.062     .328     .390     4963   
    52   Jody Reed                 -.066     .341     .407     4194   
    53   Ted Sizemore              -.075     .314     .389     4090   
    54   Jose Lind                 -.078     .316     .393     4000   
    55   Luis Castillo             -.081     .351     .432     7471   
    56   Julio Cruz                -.099     .299     .397     4437   
    57   Mark McLemore             -.101     .326     .428     4776


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