I would probably lean on putting Grich and Whitaker in myself. They're the true borderline cases, IMO, and they could go either way, but they should have gotten much more consideration from voters than they did.
Utley's an interesting case. He's got the solid foundation for peak years; his 2005-09 run was very nice. But he also needs to get healthy and put together another 800+ games of solid production, not necessarily as great as he was in his peak but at least another 800 games of a 115 OPS+ or thereabouts. If Utley trails off, he'll sort of remind me of Nomar Garciaparra; great peak but a quick decline far too soon that resulted in subpar career value vs. other Hall of Famers.
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Well, sorta... He both divorced and remarried in that year and a half off.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7823/index.htm
Four days before the divorce decree, Ryne says, he became engaged to Margaret Koehnemann, whom he describes as a neighborhood friend whose three children also knew Justin and Lindsey.
When all is said and done more is said than done.
I've seen "no way" a few times on BP.
Many I respect on this question have said this, including Cyclone, who I know is up to speed on this kind of topic.
But, just to make things clear:
Grich should be "in" with:
224 HR, 864 RBI, 104 SB .794 OPS (125 OPS+), and 4 gold gloves....over 17 seasons.
But Phillips is a "no way/no chance" with a hypothetical:
250 HR, 1000 RBI, 200 SB, .770 OPS (100 OPS+) and 8 gold gloves....over 13 seasons?
I get if if someone is more impressed with Grich because of his OPS+, but why the huge difference between the two ("should be in" and "no way")? I don't see the huge difference. I think the 8 gold gloves balances out the difference in OPS+.
Last edited by BuckeyeRedleg; 06-19-2012 at 11:26 PM.
Good topic for discussion, but I can't help but notice the "conservative" awarding of 8 GG to Brandon.
That said, yeah he would need 7-8 more big years to really get in the conversation. He is probably never gonna be "the best" 2B in the game, so he is gonna really need to rely on counting stats...a tough feat at this stage.
"Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010
Grich represents a different era too, he played when most 2nd baseman were stick figures and he was a big guy.
But let's just look at the top 20 in rate stats for 2nd baseman since 1972 (about the time Grich started) make the baseline 4000 PA's so that they are firmly entrenched.
There have been exactly 57 guys, vs only 2b in their own league
Code:CAREER 1972-2011 2B PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria OBA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE PA 1 Joe Morgan .070 .401 .331 7409 2 Bobby Grich .046 .373 .327 7328 3 Willie Randolph .045 .373 .328 9462 4 Chuck Knoblauch .045 .386 .341 6449 5 Chase Utley .039 .377 .338 4778 6 Roberto Alomar .034 .371 .337 10400 7 Lou Whitaker .033 .363 .330 9967 8 Craig Biggio .031 .371 .340 9216 9 Luis Castillo .026 .368 .341 7471 10 Bill Doran .026 .354 .329 5922 11 Jose Vidro .022 .365 .343 4568 12 Brian Roberts .021 .357 .335 5240 13 Tom Herr .018 .347 .329 6111 14 Eric Young .017 .359 .342 6009 15 Jeff Kent .016 .358 .342 8838 16 Ryne Sandberg .016 .347 .331 8589 17 Delino DeShields .015 .353 .337 6235 18 Robinson Cano .014 .347 .333 4413 19 Davey Lopes .013 .345 .332 6365 20 Placido Polanco .012 .352 .340 4690 21 Todd Walker .011 .352 .341 4601 22 Tony Bernazard .011 .339 .328 4243 23 Ray Durham .010 .352 .342 8175 24 Orlando Hudson .009 .345 .336 5130 25 Luis Alicea .008 .346 .338 4613 26 Jody Reed .008 .342 .334 4194 27 Joey Cora .008 .349 .341 4153 28 Steve Sax .007 .336 .329 7503 29 Dan Uggla .006 .343 .337 4044 30 Fernando Vina .005 .348 .343 4742 31 Mark McLemore .005 .346 .341 4776 32 Johnny Ray .004 .333 .329 5657 33 Jerry Remy .000 .327 .327 4963 34 Robby Thompson -.001 .329 .330 5235 35 Mickey Morandini -.001 .338 .339 5135 36 Dave Cash -.001 .331 .332 5221 37 Glenn Hubbard -.002 .328 .330 5122 38 Harold Reynolds -.003 .327 .330 5398 39 Mark Ellis -.003 .331 .334 4582 40 Damion Easley -.005 .336 .341 5307 41 Ron Belliard -.006 .335 .341 5304 42 Ron Oester -.006 .323 .329 4653 43 Julio Cruz -.007 .321 .328 4437 44 Mark Grudzielanek -.007 .334 .341 4751 45 Carlos Baerga -.007 .333 .340 4056 46 Jim Gantner -.009 .318 .327 5396 47 Adam Kennedy -.010 .328 .338 4858 48 Ted Sizemore -.012 .321 .333 4090 49 Bret Boone -.014 .325 .339 7432 50 Brandon Phillips -.015 .322 .337 4365 51 Manny Trillo -.017 .313 .331 5980 52 Juan Samuel -.018 .312 .329 5203 53 Damaso Garcia -.018 .309 .327 4086 54 Rich Dauer -.018 .310 .328 4218 55 Rennie Stennett -.028 .304 .332 4645 56 Jose Lind -.034 .295 .329 4000 57 Frank White -.034 .293 .328 8316 OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE PA 1 Joe Morgan .126 .845 .719 7409 2 Chase Utley .117 .882 .765 4778 3 Jeff Kent .091 .862 .772 8838 4 Robinson Cano .088 .843 .754 4413 5 Bobby Grich .084 .800 .716 7328 6 Ryne Sandberg .078 .805 .727 8589 7 Dan Uggla .063 .824 .761 4044 8 Roberto Alomar .061 .814 .754 10400 9 Lou Whitaker .059 .789 .730 9967 10 Craig Biggio .050 .816 .767 9216 11 Jose Vidro .049 .828 .779 4568 12 Chuck Knoblauch .039 .803 .764 6449 13 Todd Walker .019 .794 .775 4601 14 Brian Roberts .015 .777 .762 5240 15 Carlos Baerga .012 .772 .760 4056 16 Ray Durham .011 .787 .776 8175 17 Juan Samuel .010 .732 .722 5203 18 Bill Doran .009 .728 .719 5922 19 Davey Lopes .006 .728 .722 6365 20 Robby Thompson .005 .733 .728 5235 21 Johnny Ray .003 .724 .721 5657 22 Placido Polanco .002 .773 .771 4690 23 Willie Randolph .001 .724 .723 9462 24 Orlando Hudson .001 .762 .762 5130 25 Bret Boone .000 .767 .767 7432 26 Tony Bernazard -.005 .726 .730 4243 27 Brandon Phillips -.005 .755 .761 4365 28 Eric Young -.020 .750 .770 6009 29 Damion Easley -.021 .751 .773 5307 30 Delino DeShields -.022 .731 .753 6235 31 Tom Herr -.023 .696 .719 6111 32 Steve Sax -.024 .694 .718 7503 33 Ron Belliard -.028 .747 .776 5304 34 Mark Ellis -.029 .728 .756 4582 35 Dave Cash -.032 .686 .719 5221 36 Ron Oester -.038 .679 .717 4653 37 Mark Grudzielanek -.041 .732 .773 4751 38 Luis Alicea -.044 .715 .759 4613 39 Glenn Hubbard -.044 .677 .721 5122 40 Damaso Garcia -.044 .681 .725 4086 41 Joey Cora -.045 .720 .765 4153 42 Frank White -.045 .678 .723 8316 43 Fernando Vina -.049 .728 .777 4742 44 Luis Castillo -.054 .719 .773 7471 45 Adam Kennedy -.057 .712 .769 4858 46 Jody Reed -.058 .684 .741 4194 47 Jim Gantner -.058 .665 .723 5396 48 Rennie Stennett -.059 .659 .718 4645 49 Harold Reynolds -.061 .668 .729 5398 50 Jerry Remy -.062 .656 .717 4963 51 Mickey Morandini -.063 .697 .759 5135 52 Manny Trillo -.064 .654 .719 5980 53 Rich Dauer -.072 .653 .725 4218 54 Ted Sizemore -.087 .635 .722 4090 55 Mark McLemore -.096 .672 .769 4776 56 Julio Cruz -.106 .620 .725 4437 57 Jose Lind -.112 .610 .722 4000 RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE PA 1 Joe Morgan 2.86 7.32 4.46 7409 2 Chase Utley 2.31 7.39 5.08 4778 3 Ryne Sandberg 1.24 5.82 4.57 8589 4 Chuck Knoblauch 1.24 6.31 5.07 6449 5 Roberto Alomar 1.22 6.16 4.93 10400 6 Bobby Grich 1.20 5.56 4.36 7328 7 Craig Biggio 1.16 6.27 5.11 9216 8 Jeff Kent 1.11 6.31 5.19 8838 9 Lou Whitaker 1.09 5.64 4.56 9967 10 Robinson Cano 0.95 5.85 4.90 4413 11 Dan Uggla 0.82 5.84 5.03 4044 12 Jose Vidro 0.73 6.01 5.28 4568 13 Brian Roberts 0.70 5.71 5.01 5240 14 Davey Lopes 0.50 5.01 4.51 6365 15 Willie Randolph 0.40 4.86 4.46 9462 16 Bill Doran 0.40 4.87 4.47 5922 17 Todd Walker 0.31 5.52 5.21 4601 18 Ray Durham 0.26 5.49 5.24 8175 19 Placido Polanco 0.14 5.29 5.15 4690 20 Carlos Baerga 0.06 5.07 5.01 4056 21 Tony Bernazard 0.06 4.60 4.54 4243 22 Juan Samuel 0.03 4.54 4.52 5203 23 Delino DeShields 0.02 4.96 4.94 6235 24 Johnny Ray 0.01 4.49 4.47 5657 25 Tom Herr -.01 4.47 4.47 6111 26 Eric Young -.01 5.16 5.17 6009 27 Robby Thompson -.04 4.56 4.60 5235 28 Orlando Hudson -.05 4.97 5.02 5130 29 Steve Sax -.18 4.26 4.44 7503 30 Bret Boone -.26 4.85 5.11 7432 31 Mark Ellis -.32 4.61 4.93 4582 32 Luis Castillo -.34 4.85 5.19 7471 33 Dave Cash -.36 4.12 4.48 5221 34 Damion Easley -.37 4.81 5.18 5307 35 Joey Cora -.41 4.67 5.08 4153 36 Brandon Phillips -.42 4.60 5.01 4365 37 Luis Alicea -.45 4.57 5.01 4613 38 Fernando Vina -.46 4.79 5.25 4742 39 Ron Belliard -.51 4.72 5.23 5304 40 Glenn Hubbard -.56 3.93 4.49 5122 41 Damaso Garcia -.58 3.90 4.48 4086 42 Mark Grudzielanek -.58 4.60 5.18 4751 43 Jerry Remy -.64 3.74 4.38 4963 44 Ron Oester -.65 3.79 4.44 4653 45 Harold Reynolds -.68 3.87 4.55 5398 46 Jim Gantner -.70 3.76 4.46 5396 47 Frank White -.71 3.74 4.46 8316 48 Adam Kennedy -.72 4.40 5.11 4858 49 Mickey Morandini -.72 4.31 5.03 5135 50 Jody Reed -.76 3.98 4.74 4194 51 Julio Cruz -.79 3.69 4.48 4437 52 Rennie Stennett -.93 3.54 4.47 4645 53 Manny Trillo -.94 3.53 4.47 5980 54 Rich Dauer -1.03 3.45 4.47 4218 55 Mark McLemore -1.08 4.06 5.14 4776 56 Ted Sizemore -1.17 3.33 4.51 4090 57 Jose Lind -1.49 3.03 4.52 4000 SLG DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE PA 1 Chase Utley .078 .505 .427 4778 2 Robinson Cano .075 .496 .421 4413 3 Jeff Kent .074 .505 .430 8838 4 Ryne Sandberg .062 .458 .396 8589 5 Dan Uggla .058 .482 .424 4044 6 Joe Morgan .056 .444 .388 7409 7 Bobby Grich .038 .427 .389 7328 8 Juan Samuel .028 .420 .393 5203 9 Jose Vidro .027 .463 .436 4568 10 Roberto Alomar .026 .443 .417 10400 11 Lou Whitaker .026 .426 .400 9967 12 Carlos Baerga .020 .439 .420 4056 13 Craig Biggio .019 .445 .426 9216 14 Bret Boone .014 .442 .428 7432 15 Brandon Phillips .010 .434 .424 4365 16 Todd Walker .008 .442 .434 4601 17 Robby Thompson .006 .403 .397 5235 18 Ray Durham .001 .435 .434 8175 19 Johnny Ray -.001 .391 .391 5657 20 Brian Roberts -.006 .421 .427 5240 21 Chuck Knoblauch -.006 .417 .423 6449 22 Davey Lopes -.007 .383 .390 6365 23 Orlando Hudson -.008 .417 .426 5130 24 Placido Polanco -.010 .421 .431 4690 25 Frank White -.011 .385 .396 8316 26 Tony Bernazard -.015 .387 .402 4243 27 Damion Easley -.016 .416 .431 5307 28 Bill Doran -.017 .373 .390 5922 29 Ron Belliard -.023 .412 .434 5304 30 Mark Ellis -.026 .397 .423 4582 31 Damaso Garcia -.026 .372 .398 4086 32 Dave Cash -.031 .356 .387 5221 33 Steve Sax -.031 .359 .390 7503 34 Rennie Stennett -.031 .355 .386 4645 35 Ron Oester -.032 .356 .388 4653 36 Mark Grudzielanek -.034 .398 .432 4751 37 Delino DeShields -.037 .379 .415 6235 38 Eric Young -.037 .391 .428 6009 39 Tom Herr -.040 .350 .390 6111 40 Glenn Hubbard -.041 .349 .391 5122 41 Willie Randolph -.044 .351 .395 9462 42 Manny Trillo -.047 .341 .388 5980 43 Adam Kennedy -.047 .384 .431 4858 44 Jim Gantner -.049 .348 .397 5396 45 Luis Alicea -.052 .369 .421 4613 46 Joey Cora -.053 .371 .424 4153 47 Fernando Vina -.054 .379 .434 4742 48 Rich Dauer -.054 .343 .397 4218 49 Harold Reynolds -.058 .341 .399 5398 50 Mickey Morandini -.061 .359 .420 5135 51 Jerry Remy -.062 .328 .390 4963 52 Jody Reed -.066 .341 .407 4194 53 Ted Sizemore -.075 .314 .389 4090 54 Jose Lind -.078 .316 .393 4000 55 Luis Castillo -.081 .351 .432 7471 56 Julio Cruz -.099 .299 .397 4437 57 Mark McLemore -.101 .326 .428 4776
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