Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 53

Thread: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

  1. #1
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    4,716

    Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    For all the hand-wringing we do about trades gone wrong (myself included) I don't hear much griping about what has to be one of the worst trades in franchise history: The horrible decision to trade Paul Konerko for Mike Cameron. Konerko is a borderline HOFer, while Cameron was an above-average MLB OF. That was a steal of a trade for the Pale Hose.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    18,854

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    I think Cameron is closer to a borderline HOFer than Konerko. In hindsight I'd do that trade every time. Cameron is one of the most underrated players of his generation IMHO.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #3
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    is everything
    Posts
    2,680

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    For all the hand-wringing we do about trades gone wrong (myself included) I don't hear much griping about what has to be one of the worst trades in franchise history: The horrible decision to trade Paul Konerko for Mike Cameron. Konerko is a borderline HOFer, while Cameron was an above-average MLB OF. That was a steal of a trade for the Pale Hose.
    There's a pretty strong argument that Cameron had a more productive career than Konerko.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  5. #4
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Back in Florida
    Posts
    8,150

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Without Cameron, 1999 doesn't happen.
    With Konerko on the team, Votto is probably traded for some sore-arm or head-case pitcher.
    I'm not losing sleep over that one.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com

  6. #5
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,657

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Prob because it was 13 years ago and was essentially a good trade for both squads that benefitted both. Konerko was still in the very early stages of his career and Cameron provided a great season in '99, which turned into Griffey. Would Konerko have brought in Griffey? Of course, one can further use hindsight and say, "no, and that would have been a good thing" but I think that would be disingenuous.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  7. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,625

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    The reds had 15 bazillion firstbasmen and Jon Nunnelly in centerfield.

    Cameron had a great year here and then was a major block in the trade for Junior. Tough to complain about that.

    The choice of which of young, casey, petaguine, perez or konerko to let go and which to keep was a long time ago. It's easy in retrospect to say they should have kept konerko and young, and traded Casey, but that's 20/20 hindsight. At the time Casey was a AAA batting champ and looked like a stud while Konerko had been moved from catcher to third to first and had trouble staying healthy.

    Oh. Yeah. Without adding war up, I suspect that the notion that Konerko is incredibly of more value than Cameron has to do with over valuing tangible counting stats and undervaluing defense and speed. And I'm NOT a big believer in speed and defense.
    Last edited by dfs; 06-24-2012 at 11:36 AM.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  8. #7
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    18,854

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    There's a pretty strong argument that Cameron had a more productive career than Konerko.
    There's also a pretty strong argument that the Reds would've been better off with Cameron than Jr.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #8
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    13,790

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Cameron was a juicer, though.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  10. #9
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,636

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Tommy Harper
    Alex Johnson
    Joe Adcock
    Hank Sauer
    Ken Williams

    All were quality players who were moved by the Reds, let's not forget to try and nail somebody for losing them.

    1999 happened in many ways because of the Konerko deal, seeing how until 2010 that was the only decent Reds memory since the 1995 playoff win over the Dodgers I can't bellyache about it myself.

    Plus RH 1st baseman are usually lower on the runs created scale than LF ones, look at the RH 1b with 4000 PA's since 1990

    Code:
    CAREER
    1980-2011
    1B
    RIGHT HANDED HITTERS
    AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     AB     
    1    Frank Thomas               5.58    10.57     4.98     3262   
    2    Albert Pujols              4.40     9.45     5.06     4541   
    3    Mark McGwire               3.62     8.52     4.90     6134   
    4    Jeff Bagwell               3.04     8.11     5.07     7797   
    5    Andres Galarraga           1.30     6.15     4.85     7843   
    6    Derrek Lee                 1.23     6.36     5.13     6962   
    7    Paul Konerko               1.18     6.21     5.03     7112   
    8    Cecil Fielder              0.95     5.77     4.82     4129   
    9    Richie Sexson              0.80     5.95     5.15     4604   
    10   Kevin Millar               0.31     5.44     5.13     3799

    Now the LH
    Code:
    CAREER
    1980-2011
    1B
    LEFT HANDED HITTERS
    AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     AB     
    1    Todd Helton                3.79     8.97     5.18     7232   
    2    Jim Thome                  3.69     8.88     5.19     4272   
    3    Jason Giambi               3.16     8.29     5.13     5537   
    4    Carlos Delgado             2.76     7.94     5.18     6573   
    5    Prince Fielder             2.60     7.62     5.02     3527   
    6    Will Clark                 2.35     7.18     4.84     7173   
    7    Ryan Howard                2.34     7.37     5.03     3794   
    8    Mo Vaughn                  2.12     7.27     5.15     5532   
    9    Fred McGriff               2.03     6.91     4.88     8385   
    10   Rafael Palmeiro            1.97     6.90     4.94     8472
    Finally, since 1998 this has been the Reds 1b in RC/27 vs the league

    Code:
    RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     AB     
    1    Reds                       1.47     6.64     5.16     7983
    And this has been Konerko

    Code:
    RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     AB     
    1    Paul Konerko               1.28     6.30     5.03     6961

  11. #10
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    4,716

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    I remember the time well. I remember Casey getting hit in the face during batting practice by a thrown ball from Damian Jackson (there's a blast from the past). I remember the glut of first basemen and lack of CFers. It's just funny you still hear people complain about Frank Robinson, but Konerko is still playing (at a high level) and I don't hear many Reds fans gripe about that one. It's probably because Konerko barely played for the Reds. Heck, Cameron's one-year stint seems long by comparison.

    I agree though ... if the Reds had kept Konerko, we likely never would have been treated to Joey Votto as the Reds' starting first baseman. I'll take it the way things worked out.

  12. #11
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    4,716

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    1999 happened in many ways because of the Konerko deal, seeing how until 2010 that was the only decent Reds memory since the 1995 playoff win over the Dodgers I can't bellyache about it myself.
    Well, as great as '99 was (what a fun year), the Reds could have been good during the entire decade of the 2000's with Konerko. He was the key player in the White Sox's World Series title in 2005. So, I wouldn't agree that having one good year and then a decade of futility makes the trade decent by any means.

  13. #12
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,636

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Well, as great as '99 was (what a fun year), the Reds could have been good during the entire decade of the 2000's with Konerko. He was the key player in the White Sox's World Series title in 2005. So, I wouldn't agree that having one good year and then a decade of futility makes the trade decent by any means.
    I did not know that Konerko pitched.

    If anything was missing from the 2000's it was pitching, not offense from the Reds 1st basemen

  14. #13
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    4,716

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I did not know that Konerko pitched.

    If anything was missing from the 2000's it was pitching, not offense from the Reds 1st basemen
    The point is that saying "Well, '99 was good, so the Konerko trade was good" is shortsighted IMO. I would trade a decade-plus of Konerko's production for one good year.

    Also, Konerko wouldn't have cost nearly as much as Griffey, so there would have been more $$ for pitching. Either way, the Reds likely wouldn't have been good during the "otts." But the point is that trading Konerko was a horrible move in retrospect.

  15. #14
    All Fired Up Revering4Blue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    NE Indiana
    Posts
    1,504

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I did not know that Konerko pitched.

    If anything was missing from the 2000's it was pitching, not offense from the Reds 1st basemen
    This.

    I've already stated my case in the previous Sean Casey thread, so further expounding here seems pointless.

    Even though I've disagreed with certain deals over the years, even deals that eventually worked out well in favor of the Reds, I at least can see the logic behind the decision making process.

    Any hand-wringing from me results from deals in selling mode in which defined assets--sometimes, as a result of holding on to them too long--were literally given away for pennies on the dollar, when they certainly were worth more than the Reds received.

    Read: Adam Dunn, Aaron Boone and just about every Red dealt in the 2003 firesale not named Jose Guillen.
    "I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

  16. #15
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    5,874

    Re: Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

    Career WAR:

    Cameron 52
    Konerko 30

    Obviously, Konerko has been a good player, but at times he wasn't that impressive of a masher considering the era of the game, and his lack of overall ability otherwise held him back from being a high end player. He's aged surprisingly extremely well, but Cameron's overall game was more valuable for a long time.

    The reason there is no hand wringing over the trade is because the Reds won it.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25