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Thread: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    One of the comments in the myriad of threads going on about Dusty made me go back and look at the thread from when he was first hired. It's voluminous (no surprise there) and some of those who hate Baker today, hated him from day one, but I'd be curious to hear folks thoughts looking back over it with regards to what has happened since.

    It's been four and a half years since he was hired. One division title and three seasons where they considerably fell short. Presently we're in first place.

    One thing that struck me was the concern folks had for the direction of the club. There were "all in" comments (some things never change, do they?), talk of pitchers arms falling off (Cueto & Bailey are integral parts of our rotation), young players who would never get the chance and the club never being able to build for the future and hang on to the up & coming players we had.

    Given what has transpired over the last two off-seasons with regards to the extensions we've seen for Bruce, Phillips, Votto, etc.; I'm wondering what people think of there thoughts then.

    Some of it was tempered with "wait and see" and some seemed, as the thread wore on, to come around to some small comfort with the hiring. Of course, some of the canards that have followed Baker for years popped up and are still here today.

    My input in the thread was scant Mostly asking questions and being fairly noncommittal.

    Enjoy the read.

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...ht=dusty+baker
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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    BTW, by season's end, Baker will likely rank 5th all-time for Reds managers. He'll be jumping a bunch of folks in the remaining 90 games.
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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    I like Dusty better than I did when he was hired. Why? I can't put a finger on it directly, but I have found the urban legends about him were mostly that. I love how he fights for his players, and I think they love playing for him. He shows them confidence when perhaps they're scuffling and doubting themselves.

    My biggest frustration with Dusty over the years was probably when he insisted on playing Corey Patterson every day- it drove me crazy. Of course, Patterson did play a better defensive CF than anyone had in years for the Reds. But leadoff?

    I did have this to say in that thread:

    That thud I just heard was Aaron Harang's arm falling off in sheer terror of what the future might hold...
    And I'm sorry to say, Harang's arm WAS the one most affected during that time, by a decision that Aaron made. Then unfortunately (because I like Aaron Harang) he chose to blame Dusty for his arm woes, once he was with the Padres. In retrospect, of course, Dusty should have over ruled him and gone with some fodder instead of going all out to win the game.

    Mostly I'm tired of the Dusty bashing, non-stop, day after day here. I think that we all get it, there a number of folks here who hate Dusty- the Reds win in spite of him, and when they lose, it's his fault. It's tiresome, and it makes this a negative place to be.

    Baseball is fun, the Reds are in first place and it's nearly July. This should be a fun place to come and read about and discuss our favorite team.
    Last edited by Always Red; 06-26-2012 at 05:27 PM.

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    Public Enemy #1 Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    I like Dusty better than I did when he was hired. Why? I can't put a finger on it directly, but I have found the urban legends about him were mostly that. I love how he fights for his players, and I think they love playing for him. He shows them confidence when perhaps they're scuffling and doubting themselves.
    This is exactly how I feel.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    I can't find the quotes now, but FCB had a come of comments early in the thread, before anything was official that were interesting. Basically the points he was making was that the Reds could use someone who would instill some, and it's here I'm forgetting what he said, but whose players weren't afraid to going in hard on opposing players. I don't think he said "meanness" or "toughness". And he saw that Baker seems to dislike everyone else in the NL (again, I'm not doing FCB justice by paraphrasing what he said better).
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    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    My take has always been pretty consistent, and is best summarized here:

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...&postcount=163

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    The way I see, is there are two main parts to being a major league manager.

    Part 1 - This is your ability to put your players in the best position to succeed statistically. It means not pinch hitting Juan Castro for Josh Hamilton (Narron), it means not letting Corey Patterson face a lefty in a late game situation and saying "he hits lefties better than righties" when it's completely not true, it means not batting Paul Janish in the two hole, etc. In my opinion, Dusty is about as bad as you can possibly be at this part of managing. Absolutely, mind-numbingly bad. Way too many instances to name, but the hunches he had with Patterson, Taveras, Gomes, Janish, etc., were enough to drive me up a wall. This part of managing is easiest to control, in my opinion. Either you have baseball smarts, or your stubborn enough to think that you know better than stats do. This is where I despise Dusty as a manager.

    Part 2: The part of being a manager that none of us know anything about: Managing the clubhouse. I've never read of an instance of a player not liking Dusty Baker, or not being excited to play for Dusty Baker. He's a player's manager. He seems to be a pretty cool guy. I have absolute, 100% confidence in many members of this board being better at Part 1 (above) than Dusty is. I have no idea how to evaluate part 2, and there is no way to quantify how that affects a team. I don't doubt that it is important to a ball club. Some overstate its importance, but the fact is, it can't truly be measured. Regardless, you don't want a ball club of guys that don't like each other, or don't like the manager.

    Why many don't like Dusty is the fact that part 1 is the easiest to evaluate, and it's pretty much factual that Dusty is not good at that part of managing. How much stock you put into part 2 probably weighs directly into your opinion of the man as a manager.

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    BTW, Doug mentioned that he was going to get the domain name firedustybaker.com. Out of curiousity, I went to the site I use for securing domain names and, irony of ironies, the Whois for that domain says that today is actually the expiration date for it. So it might be available tomorrow.
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    I don't hate Dusty Baker. But I feel like Homer Bailey (the poster above). I think Dusty is good at clubhouse dealings with players. But in my 47 year lifetime, I never scratched my head as often as I do over a manager's strategical moves.......lineup construction, pinch hitting, use of bullpen, etc. I just think the strategy part is more important.

    I was always a fan of Davey Johnson and wanted him to come back. The Nationals had the same thought and now they're doing pretty well. Just my preference in type of managers.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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    All Fired Up Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    One fond memory for me from that time period:

    GAC's humorous Fred G. Sanford. faking a heart-attack avatar.

    "Dusty Baker? Oh,no!"
    "I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

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    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I don't hate Dusty Baker. But I feel like Homer Bailey (the poster above). I think Dusty is good at clubhouse dealings with players. But in my 47 year lifetime, I never scratched my head as often as I do over a manager's strategical moves.......lineup construction, pinch hitting, use of bullpen, etc. I just think the strategy part is more important.

    I was always a fan of Davey Johnson and wanted him to come back. The Nationals had the same thought and now they're doing pretty well. Just my preference in type of managers.
    I like Davey as well, but I think it's obvious he only took that job knowing he had an amazing crop of talent coming in and now it's seriously paying off. And it's worth noting his leadoff choices are very similar to Dusty's, low OBP middle infielders. .306 in leadoff this year. Also, he's sticking with his vet Zimmerman in the 3 hole, to the tune of .599 OPS this year. Similar to the Cozart and Rolen situations here.

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    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    I think Davey Johnson is the best manager we've had since Sparky but I think Dusty is very good. I don't have any major issues with his player choices. Minor issues I have are that I think he bunts too much and he sometimes gives me the willys leaving a starter in "trying to give him the opportunity for a win".

    I don't blame him for our problems at closer because we have no closer. I don't blame him for batting Cozart #1 because we have no leadoff hitter; ditto for cleanup hitter. We have an unbalanced team, heavy with RH hitters, RH pitchers and the hittters strike out too much, swing at bad pitches and have low OBP.

    As for Dusty's rep coming in, I think it was deserved but to his credit, I think he learned from it. I think he does know not to treat his young arms like he did Pryor and Wood and I think he's done well giving our youngsters opportunities.

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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    I haven't liked Baker since day one. In that first thread, I worried about the money.
    That said, like a chronic disease, you come to acceptance and even start to see the silver linings.

    His vet-love used to drive me crazy, but we've probably exaggerated it here. A lot of the kids we wanted him to play weren't very good. (Of course, many of the vets sucked worse).
    He's a good PR man and a good man, and never throws his players under the bus (in public). The guy fields the press' stupid questions every day without losing patience. Gotta admire that.
    He hasn't destroyed all the young arms. (fingers crossed).

    That said, I think he costs the team several wins a year with low percentage in-game moves and poor lineup construction. This continues to drive me nuts, especially when the team is good or healthy enough to overcome some of it (like this year, so far).

    Acceptance and rationalization for now. But I won't be sad when he's gone.
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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    BTW, Doug mentioned that he was going to get the domain name firedustybaker.com. Out of curiousity, I went to the site I use for securing domain names and, irony of ironies, the Whois for that domain says that today is actually the expiration date for it. So it might be available tomorrow.
    I do have $11 bucks sitting in paypal.....

    I still feel the same way about him as I always have.... he is a bad manager.

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    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    Aside from batting a catcher lead off, when has Dusty had the opportunity to play a high OBP player to hit 1st? He hasn't. Or, if he did have one (Dickerson, Hairston, etc) they often did lead off (when they played). So, I don't think it's fair to blame him for the leadoff woes. It's not some cure all for the bad teams that the FO has put on the field the last 5 years. And last year lead off was "ok" but it didn't seem to matter all that much in the end. Aside from that lineup quirk, what really is there to blame Dusty for?

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    Re: Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

    My opinion on Dusty hasn't changed. I'd love to sit out in the moon deck with Dusty, have a beer and watch a game, but I don;t like the thought of him managing the team I follow. Not everything he does as a manger is bad or stupid or evil - his relationship-building with plasyers is a strongpoint..

    The concerns about him ruining arms was somewhat overblown (the Harang episode" still pisses me off), but when it comes down to the things he does do wrong, they're consistent, significant and infuriating enough to make me want him gone (lineup construction and in-game moves chief among them). I think there are plenty of candidates out there who could equal the results thus far in his tenure and more than a couple who could better them.

    I don't blame it all on Dusty either. Jocketty deserves his share also. I loved the moves he made in the offseason (as far as they went), but the leadoff and cleanup issues have gone unaddressed for far too long.


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