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Thread: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

  1. #286
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    As a long time Reds fan, I think it's in the teams best interests to see what other medical services are available. While players get injured for all the teams, it does seem to me that the Reds have been misdiagnosed on multiple occassions (as evidenced by this thread) All I am saying here is that just like they do with other positions (manager, gm, players),the Reds should see if there might be someone better to be in the position of team doctor.
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  3. #287
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Well, it's a little bit different situation here.
    Votto is getting paid 25 million to perform a job.. If he has an injury that prevents him from performing that job and does not seek treatment, that's a little bit different than if I have a cold and decide not to go to the doctor.
    No different. The injury didn't prevent him from performing his job, he reported to work. Every. Single. Day.

    If I was a truck driver, and needed glasses, but refused to do so and thus endangered people on the road, would that be ok? Yes, I know it's a mistake to post analogies on RZ, and this is not a perfect one..
    Let me know when Joey Votto's decision to have an MRI or not endangers people. (yeah, not quite perfect)

    The knee obviously hurt Votto enough for him to notice and effect him.
    ... and obviously he decided he would give it the old college try.

    If this was an isolated incident, I would not be making a big deal over this, but look at Doc's history with this franchise.. Kearns had a "blister" that ended up being hand surgery.. he was continally allowed to play with it..
    Edmunds has criticized Doc. Bowden criticized Doc. Doc certainly bungled Jr's treatments many times..
    Jr. was so disappointed in the Doc that he allowed him to perform an experimental surgery on him in 2004 that allowed him to play another 5.5 season and eclipse 600 HRs. (I bet he is *super-pissed*)

    People want to claim it's ok for Doc to lie to us because of Hippa.. Well, if that's the case, why not just say Kearns is out with an undisclosed injury? Why lie about it? Oh yea, becauase the Reds (for whatever reason) always like to publicly understate injuries.. Not sure if that is Doc Hollywood or someone above him, but it always happens.
    Frankly, I am really scared about Cueto now.. I hope it's nothing, but I am not assured by the Reds' announcement.
    Doc doesn't owe you "the truth". He just doesn't.

    GL

  4. #288
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    You have NO rights, it does not matter to your life. It's a personal matter between the injured and the medical staff.

    As far as lies, who gives a rats arse?
    lol, sure ok.. it's ok for Doc to lie.
    But the Reds "medical reports" lost credibility a long time ago.
    I hope Votto is back in 3-4 weeks.
    I hope Cueto is ok.
    Because the information the Reds give us is not exactly reliable.

    I guess it's impossible for Doc Hollywood to say "no comment".. If he did that, he would've lost his radio gig a lot quicker than he did.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  5. #289
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong View Post
    No different. The injury didn't prevent him from performing his job, he reported to work. Every. Single. Day.
    whatever you say..


    Doc doesn't owe you "the truth". He just doesn't.

    GL
    And that's why he has no crediblity with me anymore. Proven liar.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  6. #290
    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS21 View Post
    How is any of this Doc Krencheck's fault?

    In Votto's opinion, it was minor, and in two separate articles Votto was quoted (while in Los Angeles) as saying it was "minor" and "improving." Why run and get an MRI for something perceived as "minor" and "improving?" Votto was also quoted as saying, "There is no structural damage." (I'm not sure how he knew that without an MRI?) He also said it was up to "Paul Lessing (the trainer) and Dusty" when he could be cleared to play. It sounds as if Votto and Lessing neither one felt it was anything serious for the first week or so. It is quite possible Kremcheck never even examined Votto until the trainer felt it necessary.

    My guess is, they thought the knee would clear up by the weekend, and when it didn't, that's when the meeting of the minds came together.

    I've heard all the Kremcheck complaints about Kearns, Edmunds, Bowden, and Junior. I personally know a young man who is an intern in Dr. Kremcheck's office. Sports franchises in the MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, and even schools from the NCAA continue to consult with Dr. Kremcheck. Tennis players, golfers, and Olympians consult with Kremcheck. Even some of the more well known surgeons around the country will send patients to Dr. Kremcheck for second opinions. Obviously, when I press my friend for specifics, he clams up due to confidentiality concerns. But he also said that other "VIP's" other than athletes come for treatment.

    My point is, that there is a huge part of the medical community who see Kremcheck as one of the top doctors in the field of orthopedics. I'm sure you will find a crank or two who will disagree, but the vast majority see him as extremely competent.

    You would check out the minor complaint thoroughly for the same reason you would check out minor problems before a shuttle launch--because the risks involved if the problem turns out to not be so minor are so great.


    I think there's an obvious problem with the way injuries are or aren't diagnosed, but I doubt Kremchek is really at fault--he's too in demand to be that incompetent. I would guess this has to do with a sports culture that questions your toughness if you complain too much or sit down too easily. You know, one that celebrates pitching with a bloody sock. I think baseball-and sports in general-needs to take a step back and examine established procedures.

  7. #291
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    According to that the blood blister happened after the surgery
    Nope, the "Blister" was identified in June, he played through it for a while.
    Then suddenly it was something that was more serious and required surgery.

    If people want to keep thinking that Doc really believed it was only a blister.. I'm not sure what to say.. I'm pretty confident Doc was competent enough to know it was something more serious but for whatever reason wanted to mislead us.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  8. #292
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    I thought it was part of the players contract that they cannot force a player to get an MRI.
    It's not in the contract, but it is in the CBA somewhere, IIRC, that players can refuse to 'submit to an invasive procedure.'

    I'll have to go digging later, but I do believe players have recourse to refuse certain procedures.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  9. #293
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    I was pretty upset yesterday, but jeez, this is sports. It is in the unspoken Sports Fan Contract that you need to be prepared for any of your favorite athletes to get injured at any time. Especially the good ones who play the most. Especially at the elite level. Your best hope is always that they're not career-ending or career-hampering.

    It's a pretty commonplace injury and in the greater scheme of things it sounds like they caught it relatively early. He'll be back this season, hopefully in time for a late-season push. I think that everybody saying "let's see what this club is made of now" is making a great point. This may be just the push they need, at the exact right time, to shore up this club where it is badly needed. Then they get to expand their roster at just the right time. This totally sucks, but injuries happen (we've been very lucky so far this season), and I'm hoping this one ends up being a blessing in disguise.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  10. #294
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I agree. Don't forget Bowden accused him of malpractice with Jr (Bowden was later forced to apologize). Sure, Bowden was a dirtbag, but why would he publicly dennounce his own medical person? Well, we know that Doc Hollywood became the Reds doctor under an agreement with John Allen where Doc H PAID the Reds to do it. Typical mentality back then.

    I'm sure Doc Hollywod is fine at repairing knees, shoulders, etc that he fails to diagnose in a timely manner, but he has a history of not catching stuff in a timely manner. He also has a history of sending players out to play before they are ready.. Clearing Jr to "pinch hit" when he could barely walk is probably the most glaring example.

    The Reds need another doctor to look at their players when the player is hurt.
    Maybe Doc Hollywood can still do the surgeries, but I don't want him to be the guy that looks at a player right after an injury.
    This. I think too many of the people that don't understand all the Kremchek critics out there (like you and me) think we're upset just because of Votto. No, this is a proven track record with Kremhack. The Reds need to get rid of him and find the best medical director they can.

  11. #295
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by tixe View Post
    You would check out the minor complaint thoroughly for the same reason you would check out minor problems before a shuttle launch--because the risks involved if the problem turns out to not be so minor are so great.
    So you are saying that EVERY bump, bruise, or scrape calls for a full body scan (MRI)? Somehow, I don't think the players are going to go for that.
    Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, and they don't want someone else's shoved into their face.

  12. #296
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Nope, the "Blister" was identified in June, he played through it for a while.
    Then suddenly it was something that was more serious and required surgery.

    If people want to keep thinking that Doc really believed it was only a blister.. I'm not sure what to say.. I'm pretty confident Doc was competent enough to know it was something more serious but for whatever reason wanted to mislead us.
    It looked to me like the blister didn't happen until August but maybe I read it wrong

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    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS21 View Post
    So you are saying that EVERY bump, bruise, or scrape calls for a full body scan (MRI)? Somehow, I don't think the players are going to go for that.
    Yeah, that's exactly what I said. No straw man there!

  14. #298
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    whatever you say..
    It's a matter of record, you can look it up.

    And that's why he has no crediblity with me anymore. Proven liar.
    He doesn't require your credibility, maybe this is why he doesn't care to seek it.

    GL

  15. #299
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    I'm far from an expert in the field, but I do know that there's a big difference between a surgeon and a diagnostician. Kremchek is apparently very good at the surgeon part. But from numerous reports, he's a poor diagnostician. Seems pretty reasonable by some of the posters here to suggest we get a team doctor who can properly diagnose injuries...it doesn't have to be the same guy who performs the procedures.
    2014 predictions:
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    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
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  16. #300
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    Re: Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

    If Joey didn't contact team meds about thinking it more serious than he first thought there is not a thing they can do! He owns his body, his med care and his health care! HIPAA is for athletes too! Everyone screaming the Reds should have made him do this or that are just plain legally WRONG!

    If you want to blame someone then Joey is the first target. Sorry folks, that's the way it is. With a quarter billion dollars at risk I refuse to believe the Reds wouldn't jump like scared rabbits at the first hint from Joey it was serious! Think about it! Do you think they give a darn about a few wins compared to all that money and years ahead?

    Steve Mancuso on Reds Nation is just dead wrong and jumped the gun criticizing the Reds staff. This one is on Joey for wanting to try and play through what he felt was a sprain and he could gut his way through it.


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