Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

[Big Klu]

I believe that is a violation of the CBA. (I'm not sure it's legal, either.) The club cannot force a player to undergo an MRI against his will. (I don't think they can impose other medical procedures or treatments, either.)

[Will M]

I agree with the above analogy. I think perhaps your initial post did lend to the fact finances were involved. However if you say that is not the case I completely accept that.

It's been brought up somewhere else - apparently the labor agreement states a player must consent to an MRI...so while it would be nice, an across the board policy may not be feasible.

I believe that is a violation of the CBA. (I'm not sure it's legal, either.) The club cannot force a player to undergo an MRI against his will. (I don't think they can impose other medical procedures or treatments, either.)

interesting.

I guess it makes sense that you can't force people to get medical treatment/tests. (except for drug screening???).

the recent Votto knee injury aside can anyone think of other recent Reds players who said "I'm OK" when they were not. as opposed to the early diagnosis being wrong and the player being more seriously hurt than the team first said. it seems the latter scenario is the one that occurs too often.

[Reds Fanatic]

This is good news on Votto. He is already off the crutches. I have a feeling he is going to be back even earlier than they originally thought.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/201...o-on-schedule/

[traderumor]

I don't know why the Reds don't seem to order as many MRIs as other teams do. I'm not implying thats its a financial decision. IMO it would be pretty dumb if it was. (although a certain Reds owner did try to resell extra donuts left over after a meeting. this despite handing out million dollar deals to players). My Dom Perignon analogy is that the Reds pay literally millions of dollars for players. Then they seem asleep at the switch when guys get hurt. Between the trainers, the orthopedist & modern imaging techniques teams should be able to make the right diagnosis quickly IF they have the system in place to do so.

Maybe the team needs to have protocols in place. If you look hurt you see the trainer. If he wants you to see the doc then you see the doc. If he has any doubts about the diagnosis you get the MRI. the player doesn't get a say. the Reds medical staff overrules the player if they feel the next step needs to be taken.

First, you beg the question on "number of MRIs ordered per team." I'm not sure that you have anything other than your own recall to make that judgment. Second, what makes you think that protocols aren't in place and operating effectively, hindsight analysis on the Votto injury notwithstanding? Timing of injuries, exams, and more extensive diagnostic procedures is a pretty complicated subject, and while you may think, in hindsight, that the Reds must not have the proper injury detection systems in place, it seems to me that you have little more than conjecture and a basic premise of "penny wise, pound foolish" management style, and that just isn't consistent with this ownership and management's behavior under Castellini/WJ, et al. Further, you beg the question regarding the effectiveness of MRIs as a diagnostic tool, as if it is as simple as "just order an MRI and it will tell what is going on in there." If it were that simple, then I'd start to gravitate toward your request to "when in doubt, MRI." I don't think the MRI is the miracle diagnostic tool that your complaint against the Reds suggests.

[Hoosier Red]

I had my 16 yr old son, who has aspirations of entering the medical profession, to read through this thread.

He's decided to become a plumber instead.

I don't know if I'd advise that. I hear you have to deal with a lot of crap in that profession.

[Brutus]

This is good news on Votto. He is already off the crutches. I have a feeling he is going to be back even earlier than they originally thought.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/201...o-on-schedule/

I don't think they "thought" it would actually be 4-6 weeks. I think that was nothing more than a conservative public timetable.

[DGullett35]

Would love to see him back for the Pirates series Aug. 3-5

[Blitz Dorsey]

Would love to see him back for the Pirates series Aug. 3-5

That's exactly when they're saying he's targeting to be back. So far, so good.

As many of us mentioned in this thread, meniscus surgery is as minor as it gets when it comes to any type of knee surgery. That said, Doc Hollywood still should have encouraged Votto to get an MRI. No one is suggesting Kremcheck should have kidnapped Votto and forced him to get an MRI. And the idea that Joey said "Oh, I'm fine" so no MRI was needed is faulty. If Joey was "fine" why did he need to miss 3 games and then could barely run upon his return?

[traderumor]

If we were going to have an injury like this, it really couldn't have been timed better. We have Astros, Rockies, and Padres leading up to that series. Even if he doesn't make it for that series, he'll be close and the Reds should be in the 17-18 over range by the time the Pirates roll into town.

[Blitz Dorsey]

If we were going to have an injury like this, it really couldn't have been timed better. We have Astros, Rockies, and Padres leading up to that series. Even if he doesn't make it for that series, he'll be close and the Reds should be in the 17-18 over range by the time the Pirates roll into town.

No question. And the Reds are already 5-2 since Votto was placed on the DL. I say he misses 21 games max. We're 1/3 of the way home.

[FlightRick]

Making it back for the Pirates' series means beating the original estimate by all of 3-4 days, which doesn't seem too outlandish. I'm not saying rush the Quarter Billion Dollar Man if there's any risk involved, but I agree: it'd be huge to be at full strength when our hated divisional challengers come to town.

The ballpark would be crazy go nuts that weekend, which would be a lot more fun than watching Votto's less-then-well-received return in Milwaukee (or Chicago) on TV.

But perhaps we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves: looking forward to a harmonic convergence on Aug. 3-5 requires Pittsburgh to still be our Divisional Challengers at the time. Not our Divisional Leaders. Still 10 games to go before then. They're against 3 of the 4 worst teams in the NL, a combined 8.7 billion games below .500; they, to use the technical term, suck. I almost feel like saying we need to win 7 out of 10 heading into the Pirates series.

But then I remember that we just won 8 out of 10 on the homestand (and 11 out of 13, overall). Given laws of averages and regressions to the mean and whatnot, is it really fair to insist that the Reds win 17 out of 23? Mostly without Votto? No matter how crappy the opposition?


Rick

[Will M]

First, you beg the question on "number of MRIs ordered per team." I'm not sure that you have anything other than your own recall to make that judgment. Second, what makes you think that protocols aren't in place and operating effectively, hindsight analysis on the Votto injury notwithstanding? Timing of injuries, exams, and more extensive diagnostic procedures is a pretty complicated subject, and while you may think, in hindsight, that the Reds must not have the proper injury detection systems in place, it seems to me that you have little more than conjecture and a basic premise of "penny wise, pound foolish" management style, and that just isn't consistent with this ownership and management's behavior under Castellini/WJ, et al. Further, you beg the question regarding the effectiveness of MRIs as a diagnostic tool, as if it is as simple as "just order an MRI and it will tell what is going on in there." If it were that simple, then I'd start to gravitate toward your request to "when in doubt, MRI." I don't think the MRI is the miracle diagnostic tool that your complaint against the Reds suggests.

The MRI is THE diagnostic tool for bone & joint issues. Small fractures that might be missed on regular xrays can be picked up on MRI. Muscle tears, cartilage tears, tendon tears, etc cannot be seen on plain xrays. The diagnosis in these cases is a combination of clinical judgement & MRI findings. Sometimes its as plain as day on MRI. Sometimes, because of the limits of imaging, it is not so clear. Good doctor & MRI beats good doctor as far as making a correct diagnosis goes.

[traderumor]

The MRI is THE diagnostic tool for bone & joint issues. Small fractures that might be missed on regular xrays can be picked up on MRI. Muscle tears, cartilage tears, tendon tears, etc cannot be seen on plain xrays. The diagnosis in these cases is a combination of clinical judgement & MRI findings. Sometimes its as plain as day on MRI. Sometimes, because of the limits of imaging, it is not so clear. Good doctor & MRI beats good doctor as far as making a correct diagnosis goes.

That doesn't sound real conclusive, and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt on your knowledge of MRI. Plus, did Votto tear it in the game the day before it was diagnosed?

When push comes to shove, again, if it were so simple as "guy limping, lets MRI" why wouldn't a team do that? Yet, they don't. Makes me think there's more to it. And it would be really surprising if someone's criticism involved oversimplified views of the problem on a message board, but I'm guessing that's the case here.

[toledodan]

i really don't believe cost played into it at all.

[redsfaninbsg]

Has anybody heard an update on Votto? It sure would be nice to have him hitting third come a week from today against Pittsburgh.