Votto has torn meniscus, to miss 3-4 weeks

[brm7675]

No they cannot.

It's very simple here. Votto wanted to try to play through the injury and, as the best player on the team, the Reds were going to give him that chance. It turns out that he wasn't able to do that. This happens in every sport on numerous occasions. Stop trying to create a grand conspiracy where one doesn't exist.

Players are like children you don't allow them to make choices like that. Especially when you have invested what you have invested in Joey. This is not some low level player making just thousands. This is your Franchise player for the next decade. As soon as he was pulled from that Giants game he should have gone and had an MRI done. He should have them been put on the DL no matter what the MRI showed. He should have gone the 15 days with no activity of any type on that leg but rehab. At the end of the 15 days you do another MRI and have him show by working out in the outfield pre game that he has full mobility without pain. If the MRI is clean and he moves without pain or reduced mobility then you activate him, if he can't do that he stays on. That is how you handle a $200 million dollar player with a knee injury.

[brm7675]

Then let's take him to court.

You're getting awfully, awfully upset about a lot of assumptions.

No I am upset because our best player and maybe one of the best players in baseball is on the shelf for maybe up to 2 months and even then we don't know how well he will play upon his return. I am upset that other teams seem much more in tune with handling injured players then the Reds do.

[Who Dey Time]

Players are like children you don't allow them to make choices like that. Especially when you have invested what you have invested in Joey. This is not some low level player making just thousands. This is your Franchise player for the next decade. As soon as he was pulled from that Giants game he should have gone and had an MRI done. He should have them been put on the DL no matter what the MRI showed. He should have gone the 15 days with no activity of any type on that leg but rehab. At the end of the 15 days you do another MRI and have him show by working out in the outfield pre game that he has full mobility without pain. If the MRI is clean and he moves without pain or reduced mobility then you activate him, if he can't do that he stays on. That is how you handle a $200 million dollar player with a knee injury.

So if the MRI showed nothing you still put your best player on the DL? You are completely wrong on all accounts here and are, typically, over reacting to what is a fairly common situation.

[brm7675]

So if the MRI showed nothing you still put your best player on the DL? You are completely wrong on all accounts here and are, typically, over reacting to what is a fairly common situation.

Yes I would have DL, because something was wrong you could see it when he ran. If I have 200 million dollars invested in something like a player, I am not going to risk it. I am going to have him rest for 15 days, let the injury heal and then reevaluate him. Had the Reds done that, the chances of surgery are maybe nill, now we are minus our best player for a minimum of a month, maybe up to 2. I will take 15 days, of which one almost full week was with no games being played over what we have now. Anyone who doesn't isn't looking for what is best for the player and the team.

[brm7675]

So if the MRI showed nothing you still put your best player on the DL? You are completely wrong on all accounts here and are, typically, over reacting to what is a fairly common situation.

What is a "fairly" common situation? Playing hurt players is never a good idea, that is why they have the 15 day DL.

[DocRed]

But they do use "radiation" in the physicist’s sense of the word, which is any kind of radiant energy, including light. If medical people say "yes, MRIs use radiation", that’s the sense in which they’re using the term, and you must remember that not all radiation is dangerous.

You don't want to have ten MRIs a day for the rest of your life.

Wrong again, there is ZERO damaging radiation from MRI's. If you want to be talk semantics, ya there is "radiant energy" from an MRI just like light bulbs's and space heaters gives off "radiant energy" but not damaging radiation.

[Larkin88]

No I am upset because our best player and maybe one of the best players in baseball is on the shelf for maybe up to 2 months and even then we don't know how well he will play upon his return. I am upset that other teams seem much more in tune with handling injured players then the Reds do.

Assumption highlighted in red.

Injuries happen man. No question this sucks. Couldn't have picked a worst guy for it to happen to, but I'm not going to pretend that I know what went on behind the scenes in this decision or the relative severity of this injury in particular. You'd do well to excuse yourself from those responsibilities as well, you'll keep your hair a little longer.

I'm no fan of Kremcheck. I'll be the first to admit that. Yes, there seems to be a potential trend of poor perceptions towards him from athletes too. But that doesn't all of a sudden make meniscus tears more than what they are or change the fact that there are all sorts of subjective approaches to rehabbing them.

[Larkin88]

What is a "fairly" common situation? Playing hurt players is never a good idea, that is why they have the 15 day DL.

Meniscus injuries are a "fairly" common situation. Yes.

[brm7675]

Assumption highlighted in red.

Injuries happen man. No question this sucks. Couldn't have picked a worst guy for it to happen to, but I'm not going to pretend that I know what went on behind the scenes in this decision or the relative severity of this injury in particular. You'd do well to excuse yourself from those responsibilities as well, you'll keep your hair a little longer.

I'm no fan of Kremcheck. I'll be the first to admit that. Yes, there seems to be a potential trend of poor perceptions towards him from athletes too. But that doesn't all of a sudden make meniscus tears more than what they are or change the fact that there are all sorts of subjective approaches to rehabbing them.

My issue isn't the injury, it's how it was handled. What if Joey continued to play through the pain, at what point would the Reds finally stepped in and done something? By continuing to play on a bad knee what more harm was done? What if Joey hadn't chosen to have the MRI yesterday, there is a chance long term damage could have been done. The problem here is the lack of control by the team in doing what is best for the player no matter what the player thinks or wants.

Look at the Blue Jays, why DL JB, give it a few days rest, he will be okay, suck it up and play through the pain right? It's not broken it's just a muscle strain...why worry about an MRI...well they xrayed last night, and MRI this morning and DL him today. Again they did what was best for the player and the team and in a timely manner. That is how you run your medical side of your team.

[Larkin88]

My issue isn't the injury, it's how it was handled.

And my issue isn't you taking issue with how the Reds handled this. A quick inventory of your posts shows that you take issue with just about everything they do, injury-related or not. We've agreed to disagree before and I'm fine doing that.

But, now that we know what we know and the results are in hand, I do take issue with you running around here saying this is a two-month or potentially season-ending injury. I'm guessing you've never had a meniscus injury yourself and must not pay much attention to professional sports in general. It is not.

What if Joey continued to play through the pain, at what point would the Reds finally stepped in and done something?

For all we know the answer could have been yesterday. No sense getting upset about that which we do not know... even if we don't understand it.

[Larkin88]

Cross-post from Old Red Guard poster fisch11

My brother got this response at season ticket luncheon:

"I asked assist gm dick Williams why team did not ask for MRI when Votto didn't. Said collective bargaining agreement and players union take player privacy with health issues seriously, and that Votto never thought it was that serious until last few days."

Basically from that I gather that Joey would have had to thought he was injured seriously enough to consent to an MRI if it was thought to be necessary. Players union frowns upon teams asking first unless warranted.

source

[Who Dey Time]

My issue isn't the injury, it's how it was handled. What if Joey continued to play through the pain, at what point would the Reds finally stepped in and done something? By continuing to play on a bad knee what more harm was done? What if Joey hadn't chosen to have the MRI yesterday, there is a chance long term damage could have been done. The problem here is the lack of control by the team in doing what is best for the player no matter what the player thinks or wants.

Look at the Blue Jays, why DL JB, give it a few days rest, he will be okay, suck it up and play through the pain right? It's not broken it's just a muscle strain...why worry about an MRI...well they xrayed last night, and MRI this morning and DL him today. Again they did what was best for the player and the team and in a timely manner. That is how you run your medical side of your team.

What is really dumb about this post is the insinuation that the Reds and Joey were not monitoring the knee issue since San Francisco. You act as if the Reds and the medical staff essentially turned a blind eye to his condition and that they were caught off guard by the surgery option. None of which is remotely true.

The Bautista situation is not comparable. First, he immediately went down in pain and told the team he felt something pop (based off the ESPN article). Had Joey said he felt or heard something pop in his knee he would have had an MRI before he was able to get his uniform off.

Joey has a minor injury, he tried to play through it and he couldn't. End of story.

[brm7675]

And my issue isn't you taking issue with how the Reds handled this. A quick inventory of your posts shows that you take issue with just about everything they do, injury-related or not. We've agreed to disagree before and I'm fine doing that.

But, now that we know what we know and the results are in hand, I do take issue with you running around here saying this is a two-month or potentially season-ending injury. I'm guessing you've never had a meniscus injury yourself and must not pay much attention to professional sports in general. It is not.



For all we know the answer could have been yesterday. No sense getting upset about that which we do not know... even if we don't understand it.

But it was Joey who went to them and requested the MRI.

[brm7675]

What is really dumb about this post is the insinuation that the Reds and Joey were not monitoring the knee issue since San Francisco. You act as if the Reds and the medical staff essentially turned a blind eye to his condition and that they were caught off guard by the surgery option. None of which is remotely true.

The Bautista situation is not comparable. First, he immediately went down in pain and told the team he felt something pop (based off the ESPN article). Had Joey said he felt or heard something pop in his knee he would have had an MRI before he was able to get his uniform off.

Joey has a minor injury, he tried to play through it and he couldn't. End of story.

Someone turned a blind eye. Because anyone with any quality of eye sight could see he was hurting. He was pulled from that game, missed following games and his overall numbers went into the tank. It doesn't take a doctor to see something was the matter. Now maybe the medical staff was telling Walt and Dusty that something like an MRI needed to be done and maybe Walt and Dusty ignored them and went wit what Joey was telling them. If this is the case then both of them screwed up, because like I said earlier, sports athletes can't be trusted when it comes to their health, if the medical staff is saying there might be an issue, you listen to them, not the player. IF he refuses to have an MRI, you sit him and rest him/DL him, but you don't let him keep playing and playing in a ASG that ment nothing.

[brm7675]

What is really dumb about this post is the insinuation that the Reds and Joey were not monitoring the knee issue since San Francisco. You act as if the Reds and the medical staff essentially turned a blind eye to his condition and that they were caught off guard by the surgery option. None of which is remotely true.

The Bautista situation is not comparable. First, he immediately went down in pain and told the team he felt something pop (based off the ESPN article). Had Joey said he felt or heard something pop in his knee he would have had an MRI before he was able to get his uniform off.

Joey has a minor injury, he tried to play through it and he couldn't. End of story.

Sorry but anytime surgery has to be done...I don't view it as minor.