I assume your rankings are the org's rankings, so to be relevant to the conversation, you would have to include their overall ranking, not just system, since you have asserted that the cupboard is bare. For example, Brandon Larson used to be our #1 prospect.Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_
Schafer is hitting .220, good glove, no-hit, Ken Berry maybe?
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
Yes, those are org. rankings. But that's the point. It shows you just how depleted they were. Those 2 deals effectively filled the upper half of the system. It's going to allow them to properly develop the draftees (which look to be fantastic...unfortunately). Any trade of a current ML'er for prospects is a crap-shoot. But when you get decent quality along with plenty of quantity...your odds improve dramatically IMO. I think they did VERY well on both trades when you consider that they accomplished EXACTLY what they set out to do. Replenish their upper levels of the farm.
And btw...the cupboard is NOT bare. Not anymore. Thanks to these 2 deals and the subsequent ones and the solid draft.
~edit~ in the overall mlb rankings, Singleton is 33, Cosart is 49, top draft pick last year Springer is 69, and Dominguez is 71. 2 of those 4 came in these 2 deals. Dominguez came in the Carlos Lee trade. That's 4 top 100's right there. Add in Correa and McCullers from this years draft. The farm is improving by leaps and bounds these past 2 seasons.
Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 07-28-2012 at 12:28 PM.
Alfredo Simon and Xavier Paul were free agents/waiver claims looking for work.
Danny Dorn would have been available for a bucket of gatoraid.
You bring in your sacrifical lambs and let the fans go wild about Farney for a year or two while the real product matures.
"Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010
Fair point. They've been busy on the waiver wire pickups, but they've done a weak job on that front I think.
My main point was that dealing the veterans was pretty much the only way they were going to re-fill the upper echelon of prospects without having to wait on numerous drafts.
If you don't blow it up you end up with a zombie of a team that may initially appear living on the outside, but is really dead on the inside.
“I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”
Which is exactly what they've been for the past several years.
I think its possibe to stay sem-competitive while rebuilding. The Reds never really bottomed out like the Astros durng the 2000's. I think what has happened in Houston is just terrible,expecially for the fans. IMO they have just botched it all up. They could have hung to a few of those veterans while staying somewhat competitive and rebuilt their minor leagues in the process. As it is now if the young guys currently on the team don't develop or if most of them wash out it could be at least a decade before they are competitive again. Goning to the AL West is just going to be a killer for them. I could see them breaking all time loss record of 120 next season unless a lot of those youngsters they have now turn out to be a lot better than expected.
Reds Fan Since 1971
I'd say 2001, 2003, and 2007 indicate otherwise.
“I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”
I like what the Astros have done and I'll be they climb back to respectability and competitive baseball much faster than anyone thinks! Some of these youngsters don;t look bad already. Remember - our own Reds had a few hiccups in 08 and 09 when some of them were young. I remember conversing with Milwaukee fans telling them the Reds were close and how they laughed saying no way Cueto and Votto and Bailey and Stubbs and the like were ever going to be that good. The Astros have a fully loaded farm system, a ton of talent on AAA, a ton in AA and the low minors and a huge wallet to open when its time to start signing free agents. I'd give them two years. You heard it here. In two years they will be fighting for first place in the AL West.
Problem Houston had was dealing with an owner who had grown attached to certain star players. Deals for Lee and Oswalt were on the table for a few seasons and the previous owner shot them down wanting to hang on to being mediocre. You have to know as an owner and GM when to turn the page and move forward.
If you have a losing record at Reds games, please stop going.
I'd argue that bottoming out allows a team to grab one of the top talents available.
A look at the current Washington team confirms that the strategy works.
In 2007, Washington was pretty brutal. They chose to completely rebuild, dealing what veterans they had (that had value), signing others cheaply, and dealing with the growing pains of youth.
They started Zimmerman early.
They started John Lannan early.
Same with Jordan Zimmerman.
As a result of those struggles, they were able to draft Strasburg.
The next season, same plan. Sign some undervalued free agent veterans (Michael Morse, Josh Willingham), make a big contract signing or two (Dunn, for example) with the savings by going young, and dealing more veterans for prospects.
As a result of those struggles, they were able to draft Harper.
They're now among the best teams in baseball.
Houston has to hope its got a Zimmerman to build around. (Johnson may develop into that. So might Lowrie or, more likely, Altuve.) It also needs luck in drafting (and has received some, in Springer DeShields, and others). The Astros also need to sign some underrated veteran free agents in order to deal them as well.
Like I said, fans love the blow it up. Why work on this marriage, its easier to just get a divorce and start over with a new improved model.
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
Yeah, how dare Washington actually make the right decision, blow it up, and then become one of the best teams in baseball!
It has nothing to do with fans or a marriage analogy. It has to do with putting your team in the best position to win games for a decade.
If I were an Astros fan, I'd be fine with the plan what the FO is doing.
Make no bones about a full-blown rebuild through shrewd dealing and drafting/developing and not being overly concerned about Joe Six-Pack Casual Astro's fan. Knowledgeable fans will be on board with this so long as the Astros don't make the same mistakes--which it doesn't appear that they are--the Reds circa '03 made:
1)Receiving pennies on the dollar for proven talents by settling for cash compensation instead of, you know, young talent/prospects to replace departing talent.
2)Holding on to soon-to-be free-agents and coveted veterans under the false pretense of "contending." Then again, IMHO, the Reds brass at the time wouldn't have felt compelled to do so if they would not have received the justifiable backlash for miserably executing point #1.
As for the casual Astro's fan, the lure of facing new opponents in a new league, should provide just enough incentive to attend games, at least for a year or two. So that concern is overblown, IMHO.
Last edited by Revering4Blue; 07-28-2012 at 03:18 PM.
Whatever you do, do your best to not allow the struggles of life to interfere with the pleasures of living.
But the Reds never did and have the same record as the Nats. Plus, don't you think its a bit premature to anoint your simplistic summary of the Nats "approach" a model?
Also, fans provide a revenue stream, which must be considered.
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
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