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Thread: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

  1. #196
    Member SirFelixCat's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    The goods news is that maybe this cuts back the high leverage innings of 5.22xFIP Ondrusek.
    Oof. I had no idea it was that bad. Patrick Bateman, I was wrong. wow.

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  3. #197
    Member SidneySlicker's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Don't really have a problem with the trade. Fact is despite how the pen has thrown this year they are relatively untested when it comes to the playoffs and we just added a player who's thrown in the playoffs in three different seasons. Is broxton a great upgrade statistically over what the Reds have? Maybe not, but as they say you can't buy experience. Or maybe you can.

  4. #198
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    No one is forcing you to do anything. But I honestly don't get what points you're making. This is a place for discussion, after all. If you have an opinion, don't you expect that some will disagree and say as much?
    Feel free to disagree with how I feel. I obviously had a higher grade on these guys than many in the ORG do. Perhaps those who appreciate these guys more are frequent flyers in the Minors, those who don't think much of them don't frequent it. Might explain some things.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  5. #199
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Why all the fuss about his K rate? After seeing guys like Ondrusek and Arredondo walk over 5 per nine, I want a guy with Brox' stats. Don't you ever watch a game against a weak hitting team like the Pads and tell yourself "the only way we can lose this game is if the bullpen starts walking people?" I think that all the time. I don't care if my set up man strikes out the side. I just don't want free passes

  6. #200
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    DP
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  7. #201
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I strongly disagree Brutus. I am done with it though. I have explained my beliefs on it far too many times already and they aren't changing. You can disagree with them all you want.
    Let me explain why many people have a hard time with your logic here, doug.

    When Bill DeWitt dealt Frank Robinson, he called Robbie "an old 30" and referenced three years of declining numbers, fewer stolen bases, higher Ks, less walks. He was still very productive, but it looked liked his best days-- those of a 1.000 OPS monster-- were behind him. Most experts agreed that Robinson, though still a very productive player, wasn't what he used to be.

    He was offered Dick Baldschun, a 29-year-old relief ace, similar to Ryan Madson or Gene Garber. Most guys around the league liked his ability to eat up innings. He'd already had two seasons above 1.7 WAR in his career, and, though coming off a poor statistical season, was considered among most experts to be one of the better relief pitchers in the game.

    Not only did they receive Baldschun, they also grabbed a 21-year-old OF who had just gone .301/ .380/ .523/ .902 in AAA PCL, Dick Simpson. This wasn't the PCL of today's hyper-inflated offensive numbers. Simpson was 50 points ahead of his nearest Seattle Angel teammate. The league average OPS was .705. Simpson, the seventh youngest player in the league, was just behind Lee May on the PCL OPS leaderboard, two of only three guys 23 or under that were there. Simpson was, at the time, one of the top prospects in the game.

    And on top of that, the Reds received Milt Pappas. an All-Star pitcher with a three-year WAR average of 3.0 who had just turned 26. By almost all accounts, Pappas was in the process of turning into an ace. His three-year average ERA+ was a 122. He was also a winner, having amassed 110 wins in his nine-year Baltimore career to that point.

    The deal for Robinson would be akin, in pure WAR numbers, to dealing Matt Holliday for Matt Cain, Sean Marshall, and Wil Myers.

    According to your logic, it's a deal is not only good, but great. After all, many in baseball thought Robinson too high-strung, hypersensitive. A rumor around the league was that he had a major problem with Vada Pinson, another huge star in the Red lineup putting up comparable numbers. (Robinson's 1965 WAR was lower than Pinson's, 6.2 - 6.0.) He was also speaking his mind more and more-- a huge problem in the city of Cincinnati at the time.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  8. #202
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Broxton is a decent pickup on the cheap. He's not a great closer, but he should provide value, if only by taking some of the burden off Marshall and Chapman. He's been kind of a gas can in KC -- he rarely has a clean, 1-2-3 inning. But as an option in the 7th inning, I think he'll be fine.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  9. #203
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Feel free to disagree with how I feel. I obviously had a higher grade on these guys than many in the ORG do. Perhaps those who appreciate these guys more are frequent flyers in the Minors, those who don't think much of them don't frequent it. Might explain some things.
    I'm sure every poster has his or her reason(s) for not posting in a forum and I imagine no two reasons are completely identical. And in my own case, it's not that I don't follow, it's that I know most of these guys will never cut it at the Major League level, and some of the ones who will, won't ever suit up for the Reds. As such, that's personally why I don't invest a lot of time participating in the discussions down there.

    I do think it's way easier to fall in love with prospects because people can deal in ceilings rather than watch where they're actually walking. There is a certain level of imagination allowed when talking about prospects because there's always the notion they'll develop and live up to whatever perception a person has of them. I think that happens a lot when these guys are traded, even though a lot of neutral prospect rankings don't match the same sort of value for the players that is seen on the minor league forum.

    To each his own. There's nothing wrong, certainly, with appreciation. But the appreciation can also be a detriment at times if someone invests a lot of hope for a prospect that might not match the actual odds of success.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  10. #204
    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Indifferent about this move. Doesn't really improve the club tremendously, but they also didn't really give up much in the way of real value.

    +1...!
    Not this year...maybe a Wild Card

  11. #205
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Scrap, I am not going to even comment on that. I wasn't around then, I don't know if that is how most of that went down or anything like that. So I can't compare it to my thinking on other deals.

  12. #206
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Let me explain why many people have a hard time with your logic here, doug.

    When Bill DeWitt dealt Frank Robinson, he called Robbie "an old 30" and referenced three years of declining numbers, fewer stolen bases, higher Ks, less walks. He was still very productive, but it looked liked his best days-- those of a 1.000 OPS monster-- were behind him. Most experts agreed that Robinson, though still a very productive player, wasn't what he used to be.

    He was offered Dick Baldschun, a 29-year-old relief ace, similar to Ryan Madson or Gene Garber. Most guys around the league liked his ability to eat up innings. He'd already had two seasons above 1.7 WAR in his career, and, though coming off a poor statistical season, was considered among most experts to be one of the better relief pitchers in the game.

    Not only did they receive Baldschun, they also grabbed a 21-year-old OF who had just gone .301/ .380/ .523/ .902 in AAA PCL, Dick Simpson. This wasn't the PCL of today's hyper-inflated offensive numbers. Simpson was 50 points ahead of his nearest Seattle Angel teammate. The league average OPS was .705. Simpson, the seventh youngest player in the league, was just behind Lee May on the PCL OPS leaderboard, two of only three guys 23 or under that were there. Simpson was, at the time, one of the top prospects in the game.

    And on top of that, the Reds received Milt Pappas. an All-Star pitcher with a three-year WAR average of 3.0 who had just turned 26. By almost all accounts, Pappas was in the process of turning into an ace. His three-year average ERA+ was a 122. He was also a winner, having amassed 110 wins in his nine-year Baltimore career to that point.

    The deal for Robinson would be akin, in pure WAR numbers, to dealing Matt Holliday for Matt Cain, Sean Marshall, and Wil Myers.

    According to your logic, it's a deal is not only good, but great. After all, many in baseball thought Robinson too high-strung, hypersensitive. A rumor around the league was that he had a major problem with Vada Pinson, another huge star in the Red lineup putting up comparable numbers. (Robinson's 1965 WAR was lower than Pinson's, 6.2 - 6.0.) He was also speaking his mind more and more-- a huge problem in the city of Cincinnati at the time.
    I hear about this trade all the time but never really knew all the pieces and their value at the time.Thanks for posting it!!!

  13. #207
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Why all the fuss about his K rate? After seeing guys like Ondrusek and Arredondo walk over 5 per nine, I want a guy with Brox' stats. Don't you ever watch a game against a weak hitting team like the Pads and tell yourself "the only way we can lose this game is if the bullpen starts walking people?" I think that all the time. I don't care if my set up man strikes out the side. I just don't want free passes
    Because pitchers who don't strike guys out tend to give up hits. When you couple that with a guy who isn't exactly able to throw strikes, he is now giving up hits and walks. That isn't good.

  14. #208
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    I'm sure every poster has his or her reason(s) for not posting in a forum and I imagine no two reasons are completely identical. And in my own case, it's not that I don't follow, it's that I know most of these guys will never cut it at the Major League level, and some of the ones who will, won't ever suit up for the Reds. As such, that's personally why I don't invest a lot of time participating in the discussions down there.

    I do think it's way easier to fall in love with prospects because people can deal in ceilings rather than watch where they're actually walking. There is a certain level of imagination allowed when talking about prospects because there's always the notion they'll develop and live up to whatever perception a person has of them. I think that happens a lot when these guys are traded, even though a lot of neutral prospect rankings don't match the same sort of value for the players that is seen on the minor league forum.

    To each his own. There's nothing wrong, certainly, with appreciation. But the appreciation can also be a detriment at times if someone invests a lot of hope for a prospect that might not match the actual odds of success.
    Fine you drew me in. But what about when they do? If you don't grumble now how can you justify grumbling in hindsight?
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  15. #209
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    I think its an overpay because I've seen Broxton pitch this season - he isn't that good fellas. Really, his best stuff was in his Dodger years. The old smoking fastball is gone. He throws a "heavy" (sinking) fastball now that does get groundballs, but his control is spotty at best. It's very Arredondo like. That 3.53 average isn't level - like averaged out 3 and half per nine. It's very much 3 or 4 in a row on off nights and then a good night. So you have good Jonathan and bad Jonathan and you never know which one you'll get. Consistency is the big issue. I'd say 2 out of 3 times he'll get the job done easy and then he'll scare the daylights out of you but still get it done and then he'll just barf all over himself the next time. He still does have a flash of that old fire once in a while when he reaches for it but it comes at a price -overthrowing - and he's as likely to get hammered as strike a guy out. He hasn't been horrible at all, just inconsistent enough to be unreliable. Is he getting stronger? Didn't seem so to me but then I don't see him every game either. I watch maybe half as many Royals as Reds games. I don't hate the trade but losing 2 prospects for 2 months of Broxton seems an overpay to me. Now, if he gets a big out or two in the playoffs I'll love it and it will be worth every game Donnie Joseph ever pitches for Kansas City.
    Brox has walked more than 1 in an appearance this season three times and allowed more than one earned run twice. Are you sure you are talking about the same guy? I don't see the same crazy bouts of wildness or "barfing" all over himself that you have seen this season.

  16. #210
    Boom Goes the Dynamite Screwball's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Do players still receive the same performance boost in switching from the American League to the National League that they used to? I.e., is it reasonable to expect Brox's numbers to improve simply because he's now facing NL lineups rather than superior AL hitting?

    BTW, honest questions. I don't have a preconceived answer.


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