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Thread: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

  1. #481
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Maybe he has just faced 8 batters in Cincinnati?

    I hope like crazy he does well. But I just don't see anything in his stats that suggest it and so far, his stuff in Cincinnati looks just like his stuff in Kansas City.
    I see your point. Time will tell. Hopefully he does well.

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  3. #482
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Maybe he has just faced 8 batters in Cincinnati?

    I hope like crazy he does well. But I just don't see anything in his stats that suggest it and so far, his stuff in Cincinnati looks just like his stuff in Kansas City.
    If he continues to do well, this will be one of those threads where past quotes are dredged up. I hope some of you are prepared.

    The groundballs are most impressive so far. And I think 95 to 96 mphs fastballs are pretty good. I guess with Chapman throwing 100 mph, it's spoiled fans to the point where 96 stinks.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  4. #483
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    If he continues to do well, this will be one of those threads where past quotes are dredged up. I hope some of you are prepared.

    The groundballs are most impressive so far. And I think 95 to 96 mphs fastballs are pretty good. I guess with Chapman throwing 100 mph, it's spoiled fans to the point where 96 stinks.
    Again, no one said it stinks. And velocity isn't everything. Broxton has an above average fastball. But it used to be an elite fastball and it simply isn't anymore.

  5. #484
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Again, no one said it stinks. And velocity isn't everything. Broxton has an above average fastball. But it used to be an elite fastball and it simply isn't anymore.
    You may be splitting hairs, Doug. Perhaps no one said it, but a lot of people sure implied it. And even his current fastball speed is still the best on the Reds' staff, after Chapman.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  6. #485
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    You may be splitting hairs, Doug. Perhaps no one said it, but a lot of people sure implied it. And even his current fastball speed is still the best on the Reds' staff, after Chapman.
    Sure. But velocity doesn't always matter is all that I was saying in terms of that reply to Vottomatic.

  7. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by steig View Post
    I love this pick up more and more. This is a better back end of the bullpen than 1990. These guys actually have control.
    When are Reds marketing types going to realize this? Where is a new name for the trio? T-shirts? Ads?
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.

  8. #487
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Doug,

    I enjoy your opinion, but you definitely hated this trade and didn't have anything good to say about Broxton when it happened.

    It's only 3 appearances, but he looks pretty solid to me.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  9. #488
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Doug,

    I enjoy your opinion, but you definitely hated this trade and didn't have anything good to say about Broxton when it happened.

    It's only 3 appearances, but he looks pretty solid to me.
    I still hate the trade. That doesn't mean I hate Broxton. My stance on him hasn't changed. He is an ok reliever, but he isn't a back end of the bullpen type of guy. He has one above average pitch, doesn't miss bats and doesn't really have a good walk rate.

    Judging someone over 8 plate appearances is generally a bad idea. Would you make up your mind on a hitter over a 2 game stretch where they went 1-8 with one strikeout? That is what you are doing with Broxton here. I want to see more, because so far what I see is exactly what he did in Kansas City.

  10. #489
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    If he continues to do well, this will be one of those threads where past quotes are dredged up. I hope some of you are prepared.

    The groundballs are most impressive so far. And I think 95 to 96 mphs fastballs are pretty good. I guess with Chapman throwing 100 mph, it's spoiled fans to the point where 96 stinks.
    What exactly is there to dredge up unless someone in the future wants to point out the Broxton's fastball velocity wasn't actually increasing as the season goes on? But really, that point has already been made.

    No one has called the trade bad or argued that Broxton's sucks. But if someone is basing their opinion of the trade upon the noion that Broxton is going to increase his velocity and therefore one should expect him to perform at higher levels going forward well, that evaluation isn't likely to stand the test of hindsight.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #490
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    What exactly is there to dredge up unless someone in the future wants to point out the Broxton's fastball velocity wasn't actually increasing as the season goes on? But really, that point has already been made.

    No one has called the trade bad or argued that Broxton's sucks. But if someone is basing their opinion of the trade upon the noion that Broxton is going to increase his velocity and therefore one should expect him to perform at higher levels going forward well, that evaluation isn't likely to stand the test of hindsight.
    No one? Wow. Not the way it went down the day of the trade.

    Sorry. But I'm seeing alot of revisionist history and backtracking going on from people who clearly hated the trade and disliked Broxton.

    I actually quit posting later in this thread the day of the trade because some of the more strongwilled/strong opinioned posters were coming at me hard, and I got tired of it.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  12. #491
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I can see that argument, but when I look at what Broxton has done this year, his peripherals don't really inspire confidence like his name would lead you to believe. Nothing but his ERA suggests he is any kind of back end reliever. Back end relievers, ideally, should have good walk rates and good strikeout rates. Broxton has neither.
    Backend relievers ideally should have high K rates and low BB rates. However, there are a good number of solid backend relievers who didn't have both, especially the high K rate.

    His control has always been a problem, and probably always will be, one reason why I never liked him as a closer. But his lack of K's can be more the made up for by his high GB rate.

    While Hoover has a higher K rate, he walks about as many as Broxton, and gives up far more flyballs and far less groundballs. Throw in the veteran factor, and I'd much rather have Broxton.
    "I donít know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody".
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  13. #492
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I still hate the trade. That doesn't mean I hate Broxton. My stance on him hasn't changed. He is an ok reliever, but he isn't a back end of the bullpen type of guy. He has one above average pitch, doesn't miss bats and doesn't really have a good walk rate.

    Judging someone over 8 plate appearances is generally a bad idea. Would you make up your mind on a hitter over a 2 game stretch where they went 1-8 with one strikeout? That is what you are doing with Broxton here. I want to see more, because so far what I see is exactly what he did in Kansas City.
    What he did in Kansas City is the following:

    2.27 e.r.a. in 35 appearances.
    36 hits allowed in 35.2 IP.
    3.5 BB/9 which is tied for third best in the Reds bullpen. And he hasn't walked a batter yet since becoming a Red. But yeah, he walks alot of batters. Let's talk Arredondo, Ondrusek, Lecure, and then get back to me.
    A 56.6% groundball rate which plays well in GABP.
    1 HR allowed because he's not a flyball pitcher.

    I'm done using stats to back up my opinion because you simply ignore them.

    Have a nice day.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  14. #493
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    No one? Wow. Not the way it went down the day of the trade.

    Sorry. But I'm seeing alot of revisionist history and backtracking going on from people who clearly hated the trade and disliked Broxton.

    I actually quit posting later in this thread the day of the trade because some of the more strongwilled/strong opinioned posters were coming at me hard, and I got tired of it.
    Point to a post that demonstrates backtracking and revisionist behavior so it can be discussed. Otherwise this is just metacommentary without context.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  15. #494
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    What he did in Kansas City is the following:

    2.27 e.r.a. in 35 appearances.
    36 hits allowed in 35.2 IP.
    3.5 BB/9 which is tied for third best in the Reds bullpen. And he hasn't walked a batter yet since becoming a Red. But yeah, he walks alot of batters. Let's talk Arredondo, Ondrusek, Lecure, and then get back to me.
    A 56.6% groundball rate which plays well in GABP.
    1 HR allowed because he's not a flyball pitcher.

    I'm done using stats to back up my opinion because you simply ignore them.

    Have a nice day.
    His ERA isn't indicative of his skillset.

    His walk rate is high. Just because the Reds have guys with higher walk rates doesn't change that.

    Groundball rate is good. Like that.

    HR rate is better than should be expected, even for a groundball guy like him. Still shouldn't give up a bunch, but shouldn't surprise anyone if he gives up 4 or 5 over the next two months either.

    I don't ignore your stats, I just think the ones I use are more indicative of what he is going to be moving forward versus what he had produced.

    For me, strikeouts and walk rates are more indicative of future performance than ERA or hits allowed is.

  16. #495
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

    I actually don't have a dog in either fight, so Vottomatic I am not trying to dog you in anyway. But if I may say what I think Doug is saying is the ground ball rate is fantastic, no argument. But, when you combine a high walk rate with a low k rate, those ground balls will at some point find a hole and score those runners that had walked. Kind of hard to score from second on a strikeout.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.


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