Why not much talk about the awfulness of Konerko-Cameron trade?

[Blitz Dorsey]

For all the hand-wringing we do about trades gone wrong (myself included) I don't hear much griping about what has to be one of the worst trades in franchise history: The horrible decision to trade Paul Konerko for Mike Cameron. Konerko is a borderline HOFer, while Cameron was an above-average MLB OF. That was a steal of a trade for the Pale Hose.

[jojo]

I think Cameron is closer to a borderline HOFer than Konerko. In hindsight I'd do that trade every time. Cameron is one of the most underrated players of his generation IMHO.

[wolfboy]

For all the hand-wringing we do about trades gone wrong (myself included) I don't hear much griping about what has to be one of the worst trades in franchise history: The horrible decision to trade Paul Konerko for Mike Cameron. Konerko is a borderline HOFer, while Cameron was an above-average MLB OF. That was a steal of a trade for the Pale Hose.

There's a pretty strong argument that Cameron had a more productive career than Konerko.

[oneupper]

Without Cameron, 1999 doesn't happen.
With Konerko on the team, Votto is probably traded for some sore-arm or head-case pitcher.
I'm not losing sleep over that one.

[traderumor]

Prob because it was 13 years ago and was essentially a good trade for both squads that benefitted both. Konerko was still in the very early stages of his career and Cameron provided a great season in '99, which turned into Griffey. Would Konerko have brought in Griffey? Of course, one can further use hindsight and say, "no, and that would have been a good thing" but I think that would be disingenuous.

[dfs]

The reds had 15 bazillion firstbasmen and Jon Nunnelly in centerfield.

Cameron had a great year here and then was a major block in the trade for Junior. Tough to complain about that.

The choice of which of young, casey, petaguine, perez or konerko to let go and which to keep was a long time ago. It's easy in retrospect to say they should have kept konerko and young, and traded Casey, but that's 20/20 hindsight. At the time Casey was a AAA batting champ and looked like a stud while Konerko had been moved from catcher to third to first and had trouble staying healthy.

Oh. Yeah. Without adding war up, I suspect that the notion that Konerko is incredibly of more value than Cameron has to do with over valuing tangible counting stats and undervaluing defense and speed. And I'm NOT a big believer in speed and defense.

[jojo]

There's a pretty strong argument that Cameron had a more productive career than Konerko.

There's also a pretty strong argument that the Reds would've been better off with Cameron than Jr.

[Johnny Footstool]

Cameron was a juicer, though.

[westofyou]

Tommy Harper
Alex Johnson
Joe Adcock
Hank Sauer
Ken Williams

All were quality players who were moved by the Reds, let's not forget to try and nail somebody for losing them.

1999 happened in many ways because of the Konerko deal, seeing how until 2010 that was the only decent Reds memory since the 1995 playoff win over the Dodgers I can't bellyache about it myself.

Plus RH 1st baseman are usually lower on the runs created scale than LF ones, look at the RH 1b with 4000 PA's since 1990

CAREER
1980-2011
1B
RIGHT HANDED HITTERS
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     AB     
1    Frank Thomas               5.58    10.57     4.98     3262   
2    Albert Pujols              4.40     9.45     5.06     4541   
3    Mark McGwire               3.62     8.52     4.90     6134   
4    Jeff Bagwell               3.04     8.11     5.07     7797   
5    Andres Galarraga           1.30     6.15     4.85     7843   
6    Derrek Lee                 1.23     6.36     5.13     6962   
7    Paul Konerko               1.18     6.21     5.03     7112   
8    Cecil Fielder              0.95     5.77     4.82     4129   
9    Richie Sexson              0.80     5.95     5.15     4604   
10   Kevin Millar               0.31     5.44     5.13     3799

Now the LH

CAREER
1980-2011
1B
LEFT HANDED HITTERS
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     AB     
1    Todd Helton                3.79     8.97     5.18     7232   
2    Jim Thome                  3.69     8.88     5.19     4272   
3    Jason Giambi               3.16     8.29     5.13     5537   
4    Carlos Delgado             2.76     7.94     5.18     6573   
5    Prince Fielder             2.60     7.62     5.02     3527   
6    Will Clark                 2.35     7.18     4.84     7173   
7    Ryan Howard                2.34     7.37     5.03     3794   
8    Mo Vaughn                  2.12     7.27     5.15     5532   
9    Fred McGriff               2.03     6.91     4.88     8385   
10   Rafael Palmeiro            1.97     6.90     4.94     8472

Finally, since 1998 this has been the Reds 1b in RC/27 vs the league

RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     AB     
1    Reds                       1.47     6.64     5.16     7983

And this has been Konerko

RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     AB     
1    Paul Konerko               1.28     6.30     5.03     6961

[Blitz Dorsey]

I remember the time well. I remember Casey getting hit in the face during batting practice by a thrown ball from Damian Jackson (there's a blast from the past). I remember the glut of first basemen and lack of CFers. It's just funny you still hear people complain about Frank Robinson, but Konerko is still playing (at a high level) and I don't hear many Reds fans gripe about that one. It's probably because Konerko barely played for the Reds. Heck, Cameron's one-year stint seems long by comparison.

I agree though ... if the Reds had kept Konerko, we likely never would have been treated to Joey Votto as the Reds' starting first baseman. I'll take it the way things worked out.

[Blitz Dorsey]

1999 happened in many ways because of the Konerko deal, seeing how until 2010 that was the only decent Reds memory since the 1995 playoff win over the Dodgers I can't bellyache about it myself.

Well, as great as '99 was (what a fun year), the Reds could have been good during the entire decade of the 2000's with Konerko. He was the key player in the White Sox's World Series title in 2005. So, I wouldn't agree that having one good year and then a decade of futility makes the trade decent by any means.

[westofyou]

Well, as great as '99 was (what a fun year), the Reds could have been good during the entire decade of the 2000's with Konerko. He was the key player in the White Sox's World Series title in 2005. So, I wouldn't agree that having one good year and then a decade of futility makes the trade decent by any means.

I did not know that Konerko pitched.

If anything was missing from the 2000's it was pitching, not offense from the Reds 1st basemen

[Blitz Dorsey]

I did not know that Konerko pitched.

If anything was missing from the 2000's it was pitching, not offense from the Reds 1st basemen

The point is that saying "Well, '99 was good, so the Konerko trade was good" is shortsighted IMO. I would trade a decade-plus of Konerko's production for one good year.

Also, Konerko wouldn't have cost nearly as much as Griffey, so there would have been more $$ for pitching. Either way, the Reds likely wouldn't have been good during the "otts." But the point is that trading Konerko was a horrible move in retrospect.

[Revering4Blue]

I did not know that Konerko pitched.

If anything was missing from the 2000's it was pitching, not offense from the Reds 1st basemen

This.

I've already stated my case in the previous Sean Casey thread, so further expounding here seems pointless.

Even though I've disagreed with certain deals over the years, even deals that eventually worked out well in favor of the Reds, I at least can see the logic behind the decision making process.

Any hand-wringing from me results from deals in selling mode in which defined assets--sometimes, as a result of holding on to them too long--were literally given away for pennies on the dollar, when they certainly were worth more than the Reds received.

Read: Adam Dunn, Aaron Boone and just about every Red dealt in the 2003 firesale not named Jose Guillen.

[Patrick Bateman]

Career WAR:

Cameron 52
Konerko 30

Obviously, Konerko has been a good player, but at times he wasn't that impressive of a masher considering the era of the game, and his lack of overall ability otherwise held him back from being a high end player. He's aged surprisingly extremely well, but Cameron's overall game was more valuable for a long time.

The reason there is no hand wringing over the trade is because the Reds won it.