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Thread: How can this be?

  1. #1
    Member Captain Hook's Avatar
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    How can this be?

    WAR seems to be a stat that many here really believe in and I do too but mostly because I'm taking your word for it.So with that said how in the world does Darwin Barney show up on the top ten list at number ten, right behind our very own Joey Votto?This list includes pitchers as well.Please help?

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...-leaders.shtml

    He's barley average IMO.

    .269/.310/.390/.700
    Last edited by Captain Hook; 08-02-2012 at 08:42 PM.

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  3. #2
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Because fielding metrics are broken.

  4. #3
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    He is a middle infielder, so he gets a big adjustment for that. With that said, this is exactly why I don't like BR WAR. They have his defensive value at 3.3 wins. Fangraphs, which uses a different defensive metric (UZR), has his ENTIRE value at 2 wins, less than HALF of what Votto is worth.

  5. #4
    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Because fielding metrics are broken.
    I'm always leery of stacking offense and defense in one number. I think we've finally reached a point where defense is respected again, but I take year to year statistics with a grain of salt. Either defense is an incredibly volatile skill or we just don't measure it all that well yet.

  6. #5
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Friends don't let friends use baseball reference WAR.

  7. #6
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Because fielding metrics are broken.
    Please demonstrate.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #7
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Friends don't let friends use baseball reference WAR.
    They're the ones that use Dewan's fielding bible, correct?
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  9. #8
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    we just don't measure it all that well yet.
    This.

    I saw Field FX before it was finalized, and it was pretty amazing. Not sure where it's being used today. This would be the best way to judge fielding BY FAR.

    http://www.sportvision.com/base-fieldfx.html

  10. #9
    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBTTReds View Post
    This.

    I saw Field FX before it was finalized, and it was pretty amazing. Not sure where it's being used today. This would be the best way to judge fielding BY FAR.

    http://www.sportvision.com/base-fieldfx.html
    That's pretty awesome. Is that something they're still working on, or is it just not available?

  11. #10
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Because fielding stats are:

    A. Measures of performance, not talent.
    B. Inherently small sample sizes due to the number of opportunities involved

    In a given season, bad defenders can have above average years and vice versa. Sure, the metric could be improved. But we're so used to thinking of defensive performance as static and consistent ("defense never slumps") that it's hard to accept the possibility that a year's worth of defense is like 200 PA. If Darwin Barney had an .900 OPS after 120 PA, nobody would care.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #11
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    That's pretty awesome. Is that something they're still working on, or is it just not available?
    They decided to make the data private rather than public.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #12
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    They're the ones that use Dewan's fielding bible, correct?
    No, they aren't.

    BR uses Total Zone, which simply uses play by play data from box scores. The Fielding Bible uses the +/- system that uses video breakdown and classification of each ball in play. They are two very, very different things.

  14. #13
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    They decided to make the data private rather than public.
    And for good reason too. The amount of bandwidth it would use up would be incredible. The one thing that does stink about it though is that when Pitch F/X came out, some of the early steps forward with how to use the data were done by fans. While I am sure that some of those same guys do have access to the Field and Hit F/X data (in particular the guys at Complete Game Consulting), I think it would be interesting if at the end of the season perhaps, the data were presented for download in an 'all at once' package for a week or so for anyone who wanted to take a look at it.

  15. #14
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Please demonstrate.
    It is fairly obvious that WAR can become extremely distorted due to the randomness of such a measurement.

  16. #15
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: How can this be?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    It is fairly obvious that WAR can become extremely distorted due to the randomness of such a measurement.
    You said fielding metrics are broken. Please demonstrate.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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