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Thread: Votto out additional 7-10 days

  1. #61
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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    (Anyone else notice the hypocrisy in saying it's ridiculous to criticize a doctor if you're not a doctor, but it's completely acceptable to rip everything a manager/coach does, even if you've never been a manager/coach?)
    No. This is an incredible reach.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Strikes Out Looking View Post
    I have to disagree with many of you on Kremchek. Regardless of the Votto incident, I believe the Reds, in the interests of the franchise, need to review their medical staffing and see if it might be in their interests to at the very least have another doctor around for evaulations of the players.
    Agreed. Could anyone really argue that it would be a bad idea for the Reds to at least explore their options? If there's not a better option out there, then fine. But at least check the market and find out.

    And no one is faulting Kremchek for Votto's setback. That happened when he was sliding. Not Kremchek's fault. But there's a long list of other things that have happened in the past that have some Reds fans wondering about Kremchek. No need to re-hash the entire list, but suffice to say we're not just talking about the Votto incident here.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    No. This is an incredible reach.
    I think it's quite a fair point myself.

    Both professions require decisions based on the best information available, and the information given to a doctor or manager is more than we're privy to as fans.

    It's easy to sit back in a swivel chair in front a computer with a run expectancy chart and saying Dusty should do this or that (although most second-guessing is out of emotion more than logic anyhow), but unless someone has actually had to manage the people that actually suit up in the uniform, it's all numbers to us. It's actual people to the manager.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I think it's quite a fair point myself.

    Both professions require decisions based on the best information available, and the information given to a doctor or manager is more than we're privy to as fans.

    It's easy to sit back in a swivel chair in front a computer with a run expectancy chart and saying Dusty should do this or that (although most second-guessing is out of emotion more than logic anyhow), but unless someone has actually had to manage the people that actually suit up in the uniform, it's all numbers to us. It's actual people to the manager.
    I think its fair to say that the information required to make in a batting order or on the baseball field is not only significantly less complex, but also much more easily obtainable to the general public than it is in evaluating medical conditions.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Agreed. Could anyone really argue that it would be a bad idea for the Reds to at least explore their options? If there's not a better option out there, then fine. But at least check the market and find out.

    And no one is faulting Kremchek for Votto's setback. That happened when he was sliding. Not Kremchek's fault. But there's a long list of other things that have happened in the past that have some Reds fans wondering about Kremchek. No need to re-hash the entire list, but suffice to say we're not just talking about the Votto incident here.
    Agreed. I was criticized earlier in the thread -- I was asked what I knew about the medical profession. I'm not a doctor, so I guess the answer is I don't know as much about medicine as Kremcheck. However, I also think the same question could be asked on this site when someone questions Dusty's managerial prowess or Walt's General Managing. So, I think questioning the Red's medical staff is fair game.
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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I think its fair to say that the information required to make in a batting order or on the baseball field is not only significantly less complex, but also much more easily obtainable to the general public than it is in evaluating medical conditions.
    Only to a small degree. Lineup construction is theoretical. Truth is, we can't know ever how a lineup would work. It's based on false assumptions that players aren't pitched differently or react differently with different spots in the order.

    It's a manager's job to not only construct a lineup based on skill, but based on how players are able to handle a role psychologically as well as physically. Some players aren't as comfortable in different spots in the order as they are others. That's an emotional part of the game we as fans do not have access to, whereas the manager would be more privy to it.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Strikes Out Looking View Post
    Agreed. I was criticized earlier in the thread -- I was asked what I knew about the medical profession. I'm not a doctor, so I guess the answer is I don't know as much about medicine as Kremcheck. However, I also think the same question could be asked on this site when someone questions Dusty's managerial prowess or Walt's General Managing. So, I think questioning the Red's medical staff is fair game.
    Except all of us have quite a bit of experience in baseball. I played baseball for many, many years. I've been watching professional baseball for many, many, many years. I have read so much about the game, discussed it extensively with people on here on almost a daily basis, am able to form my own opinions, and analyze the game at a pretty high level. The same can be said for most people on this board.

    Aside from actual doctors, no one on this board has any idea what they're talking about when it comes to Kremchek performing a knee surgery. Absolutely no idea. Can anyone tell me what Kremchek should have done differently? Should he have been more cautious when scoping his knee? I can't even come up with a hypothetical question to ask here because I know next to nothing about what it takes to perform a knee surgery. What I can tell you is that Logan Ondrusek is not an 8th inning pitcher, that bunts are extremely unproductive, that Corey Patterson should not be a leadoff hitter, etc. A manager's decision making is very public, and fair game to be criticized. Kremchek's decision making/performance is not. I don't have to have major league baseball experience to have an opinion on Dusty's decision making. Sometimes I'm right and Dusty is wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong, and Dusty is right. In no way is that comparable to Kremchek's "performance." Those throwing the stones at Kremchek have literally no idea what they are talking about. Unless they can specifically tell me how he should have performed the surgery differently (which would mean they would have to have been there to watch him perform the first surgery), the situation is 100% not comparable.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Except all of us have quite a bit of experience in baseball. I played baseball for many, many years. I've been watching professional baseball for many, many, many years. I have read so much about the game, discussed it extensively with people on here on almost a daily basis, am able to form my own opinions, and analyze the game at a pretty high level. The same can be said for most people on this board.

    Aside from actual doctors, no one on this board has any idea what they're talking about when it comes to Kremchek performing a knee surgery. Absolutely no idea. Can anyone tell me what Kremchek should have done differently? Should he have been more cautious when scoping his knee? I can't even come up with a hypothetical question to ask here because I know next to nothing about what it takes to perform a knee surgery. What I can tell you is that Logan Ondrusek is not an 8th inning pitcher, that bunts are extremely unproductive, that Corey Patterson should not be a leadoff hitter, etc. A manager's decision making is very public, and fair game to be criticized. Kremchek's decision making/performance is not. I don't have to have major league baseball experience to have an opinion on Dusty's decision making. Sometimes I'm right and Dusty is wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong, and Dusty is right. In no way is that comparable to Kremchek's "performance." Those throwing the stones at Kremchek have literally no idea what they are talking about. Unless they can specifically tell me how he should have performed the surgery differently (which would mean they would have to have been there to watch him perform the first surgery), the situation is 100% not comparable.
    Do these years of watching and discussing baseball qualify you or give you the credentials to be a big league manager? I don't mean that in a snide way, but unless you're suggesting you have the credentials to manage in the majors, then I would think some humility should be in order when criticizing those who do it for a living. Watching it on TV or discussing it on a message board is not the same as actually having to manage ballplayers for a living and making dynamic decisions that have thousands if not millions of possible scenarios that can play out.

    I think the problem here is that people actually have fooled themselves into believing there's a "right" or "wrong" decision with every possible scenario. That can't be true unless probability of success is at or near 100%. Most of the time, the probability is probably more along the lines of a coin flip on any given choice a manager makes.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Do these years of watching and discussing baseball qualify you or give you the credentials to be a big league manager? I don't mean that in a snide way, but unless you're suggesting you have the credentials to manage in the majors, then I would think some humility should be in order when criticizing those who do it for a living. Watching it on TV or discussing it on a message board is not the same as actually having to manage ballplayers for a living and making dynamic decisions that have thousands if not millions of possible scenarios that can play out.

    I think the problem here is that people actually have fooled themselves into believing there's a "right" or "wrong" decision with every possible scenario. That can't be true unless probability of success is at or near 100%. Most of the time, the probability is probably more along the lines of a coin flip on any given choice a manager makes.
    Clearly, I do not have the credentials to be a major league manager. Never in the history of the game has there been a manager, coach, player, GM, etc. that has been above all criticism. Am I supposed to agree with every decision Dusty makes, just because he's the manager and he has more experience than me? Or does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong and subject to criticism?

    There isn't a "right or wrong" decision with every possible scenario. But there is a decision that puts your team in the best position to win games, and puts your players in the best position to succeed. Dusty's decisions often do not do either of those. He often puts players in situations that are inappropriate because he wants a player to be something that he's not (see Ondrusek, Cozart, Patterson, Tavares, Rolen, etc.).

    And over the course of a season, the "coin flip" scenarios you reference can add up. Dusty got bit by the Ondrusek move in a game against Houston. He got bailed out by Stubbs. Did he learn his lesson? No, less than two weeks later he puts him up against Alfonso Soriano, and he gets punished.

    See what that is? That's pretty specific analysis. Specific things that Dusty has done that it is very reasonable to question. If I was spouting out about something like "What Dusty said to Jay Bruce in the locker room" or something that I literally knew nothing about (i.e. the Kremchek surgery), that would be ridiculous.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    It is amazing how well this team is doing when their manager often makes decisions that do not put the team in the best position to win games.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    It is amazing how well this team is doing when their manager often makes decisions that do not put the team in the best position to win games.
    It's amazing that you can make a general sweeping comment, seemingly dismissing the very specific points that I brought up, in an effort to make my thought out comment seem absurd, instead of arguing the actual point(s) made.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Clearly, I do not have the credentials to be a major league manager. Never in the history of the game has there been a manager, coach, player, GM, etc. that has been above all criticism. Am I supposed to agree with every decision Dusty makes, just because he's the manager and he has more experience than me? Or does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong and subject to criticism?

    There isn't a "right or wrong" decision with every possible scenario. But there is a decision that puts your team in the best position to win games, and puts your players in the best position to succeed. Dusty's decisions often do not do either of those. He often puts players in situations that are inappropriate because he wants a player to be something that he's not (see Ondrusek, Cozart, Patterson, Tavares, Rolen, etc.).

    And over the course of a season, the "coin flip" scenarios you reference can add up. Dusty got bit by the Ondrusek move in a game against Houston. He got bailed out by Stubbs. Did he learn his lesson? No, less than two weeks later he puts him up against Alfonso Soriano, and he gets punished.

    See what that is? That's pretty specific analysis. Specific things that Dusty has done that it is very reasonable to question. If I was spouting out about something like "What Dusty said to Jay Bruce in the locker room" or something that I literally knew nothing about (i.e. the Kremchek surgery), that would be ridiculous.
    Well, by your own agreement, there probably isn't a "right" or "wrong" decision to managing various scenarios that spring up in the course of a game, so to answer your above question "does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong," I would say obviously not. If there isn't a right or wrong answer, then I don't see how someone can be "blatantly wrong."

    That doesn't mean he isn't open to criticism, but again, that criticism should be tempered considering none of us on this board have never managed a game in our lives, at least above the little league or high school level.

    You suggest these scenarios add up. Well Dusty has a career winning percentage that places him in the upper 20 percentile of all managers that have ever managed at the major league level. You're right the scenarios are adding up, and they appear to be adding up in his favor.

    Only 75 managers have a better winning percentage than Dusty. While anyone should be open to criticism, I think the narrative that his decisions are working against him has been proven to be on shaky ground given he's won so many games over the last 20 years. Heck, he's No. 7 among active managers in win percentage. At what point does that have to count for something?

    Funny thing is, I never cared for Dusty when he got to Cincinnati. And he annoys me too. But he actually grew on me because I realized that whether I agree with how he does things or not, clearly it works. So who I am to criticize a style that has won him nearly 1,600 games? Honestly... I can't. Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint. You have always been good about recognizing hand-wringing of small samples, so I credit you for remembering that when the times come. I think managerial decisions should be treated the same way. Criticizing small decisions seems to be a major concern when clearly his overall track record speaks for itself. If so many of his individual decisions were truly not putting the club in the best position, it would eventually reflect in his overall record. It apparently has not, which leads me to the conclusion he knows what he's doing.
    Last edited by Brutus; 08-13-2012 at 09:04 PM.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    It's amazing that you can make a general sweeping comment, seemingly dismissing the very specific points that I brought up, in an effort to make my thought out comment seem absurd, instead of arguing the actual point(s) made.
    Two reasons for that. One, I am trying to get my daughter to sleep and am posting from the iPhone from her bedroom. Two, trying to discredit a manager with Dusty's track record by picking out certain one off decisions is ridiculous. If Dusty's use of Logan Ondrusek is this team's biggest concern, then we'll be ok.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Well, by your own agreement, there probably isn't a "right" or "wrong" decision to managing various scenarios that spring up in the course of a game, so to answer your above question "does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong," I would say obviously not. If there isn't a right or wrong answer, then I don't see how someone can be "blatantly wrong."

    That doesn't mean he isn't open to criticism, but again, that criticism should be tempered considering none of us on this board have never managed a game in our lives, at least above the little league or high school level.
    Sigh. You said:
    I think the problem here is that people actually have fooled themselves into believing there's a "right" or "wrong" decision with every possible scenario.
    to which I said:
    There isn't a "right or wrong" decision with every possible scenario.
    That does not mean that there aren't scenarios when he makes a blatantly poor decision. Me having never managed a game has literally nothing to do with the fact that Dusty keeps putting Ondrusek in positions that he shouldn't be in.

    You suggest these scenarios add up. Well Dusty has a career winning percentage that places him in the upper 20 percentile of all managers that have ever managed at the major league level. You're right the scenarios are adding up, and they appear to be adding up in his favor.

    Only 75 managers have a better winning percentage than Dusty. While anyone should be open to criticism, I think the narrative that his decisions are working against him has been proven to be on shaky ground given he's won so many games over the last 20 years. Heck, he's No. 7 among active managers in win percentage. At what point does that have to count for something?
    The managerial record argument is one of the worst in all of baseball, in my opinion. It's not basketball or baseball. Put the "best manager" in the game on the worst team, and it's still the worst team. Put the worst manager on the best team, and while it's probably still the best team, there is more a manager can do to bring down a team with his decision making than he can build up a team that is going to over achieve. Did Dusty all of a sudden become a bad manager in 2006 when the Cubs won 66 games? Was he still a bad manager when the Reds won 74 games? Did he magically become better in 2010 when the Reds won 91, only to suck again in 2011 to win 79 games? A teams record is more of a reflection of the actual ball players than it is the manager. That doesn't mean I can't have problems with a manager's decision making, especially when I have strong facts to support my opinions.

    Funny thing is, I never cared for Dusty when he got to Cincinnati. And he annoys me too. But he actually grew on me because I realized that whether I agree with how he does things or not, clearly it works. So who I am to criticize a style that has won him nearly 1,600 games? Honestly... I can't. Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint. You have always been good about recognizing hand-wringing of small samples, so I credit you for remembering that when the times come. I think managerial decisions should be treated the same way. Criticizing small decisions seems to be a major concern when clearly his overall track record speaks for itself. If so many of his individual decisions were truly not putting the club in the best position, it would eventually reflect in his overall record. It apparently has not, which leads me to the conclusion he knows what he's doing.
    I made a lengthy post this offseason summarizing my thoughts on Dusty. To summarize, there are two parts of managing a team - the locker room factor, and the decision making factor. I'm not going to pretend to understand the locker room factor, but I concede (by basically anyone that has covered him or played for him) that Dusty is excellent at this part. The part that is easiest to evaluate is the decision making, and Dusty drives me up a wall on this side of the coin. In my opinion, he deserves plenty of criticism for some of his philosophies and "Dustification" for his decisions.

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    Re: Votto out additional 7-10 days

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Two reasons for that. One, I am trying to get my daughter to sleep and am posting from the iPhone from her bedroom. Two, trying to discredit a manager with Dusty's track record by picking out certain one off decisions is ridiculous. If Dusty's use of Logan Ondrusek is this team's biggest concern, then we'll be ok.
    The Ondrusek citing was simply an example. If you want, I can go into full detail about all the things I disagree with Dusty on. I don't want to do that, and I doubt anyone truly cares to read that. And according to some, I shouldn't be allowed to criticize him because I'm not a major league manager.


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