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Thread: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

  1. #61
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I like Stanton, a lot. But it's easier to find a Stanton than it is to find a Chapman.
    Is it though? If Chapman were going all Verlander, then I would agree with you. But he is a reliever. Regardless of how incredibly good he is, we are talking about 70-80 innings in a season with 1500 of them for our boys.

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Is it though? If Chapman were going all Verlander, then I would agree with you. But he is a reliever. Regardless of how incredibly good he is, we are talking about 70-80 innings in a season with 1500 of them for our boys.
    I don't know why you insist of calling him a "reliever." He pitched as a starter in spring training this year. It wasn't until Ryan Madson got hurt that he was put back in the bullpen. He's a starter. He was signed as a starter. The Reds, as recently as June, have said they still intend to make him a starter.

    Yet, even as a reliever, he's on the way to setting all sorts of records for a reliever in the history of baseball. So yeah, I'd say it's extremely hard to find another Chapman... considering no one in the history of baseball has struck out as many batters per nine innings as Chapman currently has done. There are many other guys every single season that have a .940 OPS. In fact, the Reds have one well over that and two others that are very close to that. No one in baseball has had the kind of season Chapman is having... ever.

    So yeah, it's a lot easier to find another Stanton than it is to find another Chapman. Even as a reliever. And Chapman is still likely going to be a starter.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I don't know why you insist of calling him a "reliever." He pitched as a starter in spring training this year. It wasn't until Ryan Madson got hurt that he was put back in the bullpen. He's a starter. He was signed as a starter. The Reds, as recently as June, have said they still intend to make him a starter.

    Yet, even as a reliever, he's on the way to setting all sorts of records for a reliever in the history of baseball. So yeah, I'd say it's extremely hard to find another Chapman... considering no one in the history of baseball has struck out as many batters per nine innings as Chapman currently has done. There are many other guys every single season that have a .940 OPS. In fact, the Reds have one well over that and two others that are very close to that. No one in baseball has had the kind of season Chapman is having... ever.

    So yeah, it's a lot easier to find another Stanton than it is to find another Chapman. Even as a reliever. And Chapman is still likely going to be a starter.
    As it stands Brutus, it is fair to say Chapman is a reliever in the major leagues. He has the potential to be a great starter, an extremely great one. But it is not right to consider him a "bird in the hand" major league starter. I hope one day we can do so.

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Is it though? If Chapman were going all Verlander, then I would agree with you. But he is a reliever. Regardless of how incredibly good he is, we are talking about 70-80 innings in a season with 1500 of them for our boys.
    Chapman is having an incredible season for a reliever. Who knows if he can ever repeat it. History tells us probably not.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    As it stands Brutus, it is fair to say Chapman is a reliever in the major leagues. He has the potential to be a great starter, an extremely great one. But it is not right to consider him a "bird in the hand" major league starter. I hope one day we can do so.
    Suit yourself, but I consider him a bird in the hand starter. Show me I'm wrong

    He's been a starter all his life. He started games as recently as March. It's not like someone that's been a reliever that has never done it. That's never been the question. I don't believe for a second someone of his talent is going to struggle as a starter. Dusty said repeatedly this spring Chapman was great as a starter. I have no doubts he'll be successful. How successful? TBD. But I am of no concern he'll be anything less than a top-of-the-rotation arm.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Guy just launched another upper decker

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I don't know why you insist of calling him a "reliever." He pitched as a starter in spring training this year. It wasn't until Ryan Madson got hurt that he was put back in the bullpen. He's a starter. He was signed as a starter. The Reds, as recently as June, have said they still intend to make him a starter.

    Yet, even as a reliever, he's on the way to setting all sorts of records for a reliever in the history of baseball. So yeah, I'd say it's extremely hard to find another Chapman... considering no one in the history of baseball has struck out as many batters per nine innings as Chapman currently has done. There are many other guys every single season that have a .940 OPS. In fact, the Reds have one well over that and two others that are very close to that. No one in baseball has had the kind of season Chapman is having... ever.

    So yeah, it's a lot easier to find another Stanton than it is to find another Chapman. Even as a reliever. And Chapman is still likely going to be a starter.
    I still call him a reliever because there is the number 0 in his career starts line. It is pretty simple. The Reds have 'planned on him being a starter' since 2010. Well, 2012 is just about over and he still hasn't started a game for the Reds.

    Aroldis Chapman is having an elite season for his position. But his position simply isn't used enough.

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I still call him a reliever because there is the number 0 in his career starts line. It is pretty simple. The Reds have 'planned on him being a starter' since 2010. Well, 2012 is just about over and he still hasn't started a game for the Reds.

    Aroldis Chapman is having an elite season for his position. But his position simply isn't used enough.
    There were 13 starts in AAA. Do those not count? I know you don't hesitate to bring up minor league numbers for younger players when it's suitable

    And considering he was a starter all throughout spring training, and it only was a TJ surgery of their closer that changed their minds, I don't think it's fair to hold 2012 against them for why Chapman isn't starting.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  10. #69
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    No, those don't count. A lot of relievers started in the minor leagues. This is his second full season in the Majors and part of a third for him. Until the Reds actually start him in the Majors, he is a reliever.

    The Reds rationale that taking Chapman and moving him to the bullpen because their closer went down tells me that they weren't sure about him starting.

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, those don't count. A lot of relievers started in the minor leagues. This is his second full season in the Majors and part of a third for him. Until the Reds actually start him in the Majors, he is a reliever.

    The Reds rationale that taking Chapman and moving him to the bullpen because their closer went down tells me that they weren't sure about him starting.
    They don't count because it's not convenient to your case? I'd say they should count because it shows A) the Reds signed him with intent of being a starter, and B) this year started him in spring training with the intent of moving him back to the rotation.

    Considering we're discussing the Reds' intent, I'd say those 13 starts he made in 2010 are quite relevant.

    Further, it wasn't just Madson. It was also Masset. And Bray. Yet, three of their bullpen arms get hurt, and yet we're supposed to believe their moving him is evidence they weren't sure of him starting? That's very strange logic, Doug. They had five starters this year. They didn't need him in the rotation, they needed him in the bullpen on short notice. It's not even debatable as to why they moved him... they said that several times. Dusty said on a few occasions he was in line to make the rotation if Madson had not gotten hurt.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    No, they don't count because they came 2 and a half years ago. That is like saying that Sam LeCure is a starter too. He isn't. Does Chapman have the potential to be a starter? Sure. But he isn't right now, nor has he ever been a starter as a Major Leaguer. He shouldn't be counted on as a starter. We don't know that he can go 6 innings on a consistent basis and maintain his stuff and control. He has never done it before in his life.

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man


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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, they don't count because they came 2 and a half years ago. That is like saying that Sam LeCure is a starter too. He isn't. Does Chapman have the potential to be a starter? Sure. But he isn't right now, nor has he ever been a starter as a Major Leaguer. He shouldn't be counted on as a starter. We don't know that he can go 6 innings on a consistent basis and maintain his stuff and control. He has never done it before in his life.
    Did Sam LeCure pitch as a starter in the spring and only get moved after three bullpen arms got hurt? I know what the answer to that question is

    Look, it's not a given that they move him back, although they continue to say they are going to. But it is absolutely a given he was a starter in the spring and that the only reason he got moved to the bullpen is because three of their expected high-leverage relievers all got hurt. That part isn't a mystery.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    We just are not going to agree on that. At the end, I believe Stanton > Chapman. Simple as that.

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    Re: Giancarlo-Cruz Michael Stanton is a strong, strong man

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    We just are not going to agree on that. At the end, I believe Stanton > Chapman. Simple as that.
    Fair enough. I'll reserve my right to renew my objection when it becomes clear that a guy like Chapman is irreplaceable. I just think in this case, you're being Jim Bowden-bamboozled.

    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


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