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Thread: A Conversation About PEDs in Today's Game

  1. #16
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Here is a good article on Rosenthal with an interview of his community college coach:

    http://bcbaseballtoday.com/bc-player...owing-pitcher/

    “When we first saw Trevor play, he had a live arm and was very athletic!” Burroughs told me. “He played Short Stop and pitched while here and we visited with Trevor and explained to him that his future in professional baseball was as a pitcher. He agreed and that is when he started to progress at a rapid pace. His fastball velocity started to increase and his composure was really good. We used him as a closer and the best velocity he showed here was in the Junior College World Series at 97mph. It was easy to tell he had a high ceiling. We are proud that he is a product of our program and hope he has continued success as a Cardinal!”
    As you can see, he already had stuff but it was really really raw in college. No need to go down the PED bandwagon here unless you're going to accuse him of using PED's in community college, 757690
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  3. #17
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    Uhh, no. Because PED accusations are made by fans all the time to discredit the accomplishments of other teams. That's why.

    Now that I think about it, I remember you vehemently arguing that Molina was using PEDs a couple months ago, and your evidence was he hit more HRs the last two seasons. I guess this is your schtick.
    I think PED usage is widespread on many teams. There is no real incentive for a 23rd round scrub to not use something that so obviously works.

    Some teams have large amounts of players that physically fit the PED bill and have odd career arcs that suggest possible PED usage. I also think known PED users in coaching capacities tend to teach what they know works to their players.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  4. #18
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Here's what I will say. While the PED card may not be the right play, it remains to be seen what the holy grail is for the Cards' stable of arms. Is it dumb luck, a skill, or somewhere in between?

    Of course, it was glaringly noticeable this year that there was an overabundance of young power pitchers throughout MLB and it has me asking obvious questions like "what the hell?" Dramatic shifts in a particular attribute of the game demands an explanation. I am very curious to see what the common thread is behind this spike in guys throwing high 90s and low 100s fastballs.
    Can't win with 'em

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  6. #19
    Member Beltway's Avatar
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    I think PED usage is widespread on many teams. There is no real incentive for a 23rd round scrub to not use something that so obviously works.

    Some teams have large amounts of players that physically fit the PED bill and have odd career arcs that suggest possible PED usage. I also think known PED users in coaching capacities tend to teach what they know works to their players.
    This speculation is all well and good, but it's not evidence.

  7. #20
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Here's what I will say. While the PED card may not be the right play, it remains to be seen what the holy grail is for the Cards' stable of arms. Is it dumb luck, a skill, or somewhere in between?

    Of course, it was glaringly noticeable this year that there was an overabundance of young power pitchers throughout MLB and it has me asking obvious questions like "what the hell?" Dramatic shifts in a particular attribute of the game demands an explanation. I am very curious to see what the common thread is behind this spike in guys throwing high 90s and low 100s fastballs.
    Better coaching at younger ages, better physical training programs, better athletes becoming pitchers rather than position players.

  8. #21
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    Uhh, no. Because PED accusations are made by fans all the time to discredit the accomplishments of other teams. That's why.

    Now that I think about it, I remember you vehemently arguing that Molina was using PEDs a couple months ago, and your evidence was he hit more HRs the last two seasons. I guess this is your schtick.
    You mean like this post

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...&postcount=302

    And I never argued that Molina was using PED's. I was simply providing evidence that suggested that he might be. In fact I explicitly stated that the evidence didn't probe that he did.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  9. #22
    Member MattyHo4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    3. I'm not the only one to wonder about such things. Even mild mannered Chris Welsh of the Reds broadcasting crew has brought up the exact same questions more than one on Reds broadcast.
    What things are you wondering? It can't be PEDS, because only people that are already thinking about PEDS would think that's what you mean right?

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    757690 (10-10-2013), indyscott (10-10-2013), MikeThierry (10-10-2013)

  11. #23
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    You are one of the most dishonest people I have ever debated on a forum, anywhere. Of course you went down the PED route in your original statement.

    Also, in the Rosenthal link you linked, this is what is said in the next paragraph down:



    Of course if Rosenthal is starting, he isn't going to have the high fast ball going. That's just basic logic. Stop looking for things when they're not there.
    First, of course I was implying PED use. However, no one would get that implication, if the facts didn't suggest it or they weren't already thinking that.

    Second, I stated that many young pitchers for the Cards experienced increased velocity since they were drafted. You said that wasn't true. You asked for links. I provided links that showed that four young Cardinal pitchers showed increased velocity.

    How is that dishonest? You can argue that there were logical reasons besides PED use that explain such increases, but the facts are clear, a number of young Cardinal pitchers have experienced increased velocity since they were drafted.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  12. #24
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    You mean like this post

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...&postcount=302

    And I never argued that Molina was using PED's. I was simply providing evidence that suggested that he might be. In fact I explicitly stated that the evidence didn't probe that he did.
    Yep, I accused Liriano of using PEDs out of bitterness. But...and this is an important but...I didn't go around claiming I had evidence that Liriano uses PEDs.

    You said Molina used PEDs and your evidence was that he his power production increased. Evidence would be empty syringes with traces of PEDs in them in Molina's locker. Evidence would be records of PED sales or shipments to Molina's house. Evidence is not "well, he hit more HRs". That's a non sequitur.

    Molina might be using PEDs, but we have no evidence to support that claim. Zip. Zero. Nada.

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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    This speculation is all well and good, but it's not evidence.
    There is evidence, it's just not conclusive. Speculation is normally based in evidence.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  15. #26
    Member Beltway's Avatar
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    There is evidence, it's just not conclusive. Speculation is normally based in evidence.
    /facepalm

    I hope to God you're not a scientist and the idea of you serving on a jury scares me.

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  17. #27
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    First, of course I was implying PED use. However, no one would get that implication, if the facts didn't suggest it or they weren't already thinking that.

    Second, I stated that many young pitchers for the Cards experienced increased velocity since they were drafted. You said that wasn't true. You asked for links. I provided links that showed that four young Cardinal pitchers showed increased velocity.

    How is that dishonest? You can argue that there were logical reasons besides PED use that explain such increases, but the facts are clear, a number of young Cardinal pitchers have experienced increased velocity since they were drafted.
    Actually, the links I provided showed that many of those young pitchers already had high velocity fast balls to begin with and what they're doing now isn't much different than what they showed when they were drafted. The only pitcher I will give you that had a drastic increase in their velocity is Lance Lynn.

    Keep on being intellectually dishonest though and using manipulative arguments to try to prove your "points".
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  18. #28
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Actually, the links I provided showed that many of those young pitchers already had high velocity fast balls to begin with and what they're doing now isn't much different than what they showed when they were drafted. The only pitcher I will give you that had a drastic increase in their velocity is Lance Lynn.

    Keep on being intellectually dishonest though and using manipulative arguments to try to prove your "points".
    You provided one link that showed that Rosenthal was hitting 97. He's hitting 100 now.

    Wacha absolutely gained extra MPH in his fastball, all you showed was that he improved his velocity once he temporarily shifted to the pen. However, that doesn't explain how he maintained that velocity when he went back to starting.

    Even if you count Rosenthal as always throwing this hard, you have yet to show disprove that Lynn, Seigrist and Wacha increased their velocity since being drafted.

    But I'm not going to accuse you of being dishonest because that would be rude.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  19. #29
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    /facepalm

    I hope to God you're not a scientist and the idea of you serving on a jury scares me.
    Science has advanced plenty of theories on theoretical evidence, such as Gravity.

    Plenty of individuals have been put into prisons because of theoretical evidence alone, with zero physical evidence.

    With all due respect, I don't think you understand what the word "evidence" means.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  20. #30
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    Re: Scoreboard Watching 2013 (Playoffs Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    Yep, I accused Liriano of using PEDs out of bitterness. But...and this is an important but...I didn't go around claiming I had evidence that Liriano uses PEDs.

    You said Molina used PEDs and your evidence was that he his power production increased. Evidence would be empty syringes with traces of PEDs in them in Molina's locker. Evidence would be records of PED sales or shipments to Molina's house. Evidence is not "well, he hit more HRs". That's a non sequitur.

    Molina might be using PEDs, but we have no evidence to support that claim. Zip. Zero. Nada.
    So accusing someone of using PED's without any evidence is better than accusing someone of using PED's with evidence?
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.


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