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Thread: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

  1. #121
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by 11larkin11 View Post
    I think it's more because he's a fantastic defender, despite what the flawed defensive metrics say. If Stubbs was batting 8th playing everyday in CF, people wouldn't have a problem with him. See who Atlanta's everyday #8 hitter is.
    I just don't see a "fantastic defender" when I see Stubbs. I see a good defender who can cover a lot of ground but leaves a lot of outs on the table because he pulls up too soon and plays balls on a hop. I don't remember many running catches on balls in front of him. He pulls up while the ball is still 10 to 15 feet in the air and plays it on a hop. One more step and he'd catch it in the air. Drives me nuts.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!


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  3. #122
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Leads all LHB in homers vs lefties since the start 2010.
    Inconvenient facts...

  4. #123
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by 11larkin11 View Post
    I think it's more because he's a fantastic defender, despite what the flawed defensive metrics say. If Stubbs was batting 8th playing everyday in CF, people wouldn't have a problem with him. See who Atlanta's everyday #8 hitter is.
    Brandon Phillips and Scotty Rolen are fantastic defenders. Drew Stubbs is fast. They are two entirely different things. His speed makes up for a lot of centerfield skills that arent full developed such as getting reads off the bat, getting good jumps, knowing when to pull up on a hop or go for the catch, and playing around the wall. Stubbs has the speed and athletic ability to be an Andruw Jones (in his prime) type defender in CF, instead he is around average.

    That is a big reason why I don't see a big drop off in defense, Stubbs isn't as good in CF as a lot think he is. We aren't removing an all-world defender out of the lineup.

    If they chat with Bruce and he is comfortable with giving it a few games, it would be wise to give it a try, and see how it works out.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  5. #124
    Member Nasty_Boy's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Just watching Heisey in CF makes me appreciate what Stubbs gives the Reds defensively... He rarely misplays a ball and his arm is strong and accurate. I think one of the underrated things that Stubbs does well is hit his cut off men, and throws to the correct base. You don't see him air mailing the guy and allowing the other runners to take an extra base. He's also quick and accurate about getting the ball back in from the gaps. He may not pull the all out Free like dive, but his play in CF is extremely valuable IMO... I just wish he were hitting at the bottom of the order.

  6. #125
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Stubbs is not an elite defensive CF by any means. He's good. He's above average. He's fast. But he's by no means a "great" defensive CF. He doesn't come in on balls very well. It's a tough play when a line drive is hit in front of you, yet is close enough to be caught. Some CFs are good at it, most aren't. Stubbs falls in the latter category. Often he doesn't get good jumps on balls. When he does, it's a thing of beauty. He can cover the gaps with ease. It's fun to watch and that's why some fans overrate Stubbs' defensive ability. Occasionally he will make a spectacular play. He also has a strong arm. But he's also not very good at playing balls close to the wall (which is another difficult thing to do, but if we're talking about being an elite CF you need to do those things) however he has improved in that area.

  7. #126
    Member traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Leads all LHB in homers vs lefties since the start 2010.
    Bruce has been struggling all season against lefties, which is why I called it recent. I know what his history is, but counting stats also include more opportunities. He doesn't get platooned or pinch hit for against situational lefties much and can run into one against a lefty every now and then. If he is on a tear, it doesn't matter if its lefty or righty out there.

    Finally, I'd be more impressed with your point if you provided something other than "most since..." since that gives little context.

    Things like 115 points less in slugging % this season against lefties with a pretty healthy sample size might seem more relevant than counting the number of homers since some point in time, for example. 30% strikeout rate against lefties, 21% against righties is another example. Shall we mention an OBP under .300 against lefties vs. .349 against righties seems relevant as well, for context sake.
    Last edited by traderumor; 08-28-2012 at 11:36 AM.
    "Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"

  8. #127
    Member Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Bruce has been struggling all season against lefties, which is why I called it recent. I know what his history is, but counting stats also include more opportunities. He doesn't get platooned or pinch hit for against situational lefties much and can run into one against a lefty every now and then. If he is on a tear, it doesn't matter if its lefty or righty out there.

    Finally, I'd be more impressed with your point if you provided something other than "most since..." since that gives little context.
    A .750ish 760ish OPS vs. lefties isn't really struglling.

  9. #128
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    A .750ish 760ish OPS vs. lefties isn't really struglling.
    .227/.294/.440 = .733 (.711 against lefty starters) is his 2012 lefty split. My eyeballs told me the same thing from watching 90% of the games. So your point is? Are we looking for everyday players getting on base less than a .300 clip in 1/3 of their ABs? It could be an off year, but his lefty numbers are not dramatically worse this year than his career. If you're trying to get the best offensive lineup out there against lefties, wouldn't it make sense to take advantage of Stubbs only strengths (can hit lefties sometimes and cover some ground that Frazier can't) and put the lefty killers in the lineup?

    Bruce is better than some lefty vs. lefty, but let's not pretend that a strong case can't be built for sitting him against lefties on any given day.
    "Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"

  10. #129
    Member Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    .227/.294/.440 = .733 (.711 against lefty starters) is his 2012 lefty split. My eyeballs told me the same thing from watching 90% of the games. So your point is? Are we looking for everyday players getting on base less than a .300 clip in 1/3 of their ABs? It could be an off year, but his lefty numbers are not dramatically worse this year than his career. If you're trying to get the best offensive lineup out there against lefties, wouldn't it make sense to take advantage of Stubbs only strengths (can hit lefties sometimes and cover some ground that Frazier can't) and put the lefty killers in the lineup?

    Bruce is better than some lefty vs. lefty, but let's not pretend that a strong case can't be built for sitting him against lefties on any given day.
    The last I had checked, his OPS was around .750, which I now see is .733.

    In 2011, it was .804. In 2010, it was .899. That would put his 3 year average around .800.

    Is your point that you'd rather see Frazier play RF against lefties than Bruce? I hope it isn't suggesting Heisey should play over him.

    Even given the numbers, I would not play Frazier over Bruce against LHP's.

  11. #130
    Member traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    The last I had checked, his OPS was around .750, which I now see is .733.

    In 2011, it was .804. In 2010, it was .899. That would put his 3 year average around .800.

    Is your point that you'd rather see Frazier play RF against lefties than Bruce? I hope it isn't suggesting Heisey should play over him.

    Even given the numbers, I would not play Frazier over Bruce against LHP's.
    If you'd look back, I stated my thoughts on that. If you're looking for maximizing your offense in the lineup, then the Votto return lineups should have Stubbs in center and Frazier in right against lefties, then Bruce in RF and Heisey in CF against righties. Take your pick between two of Frazier, Ludwick and Rolen for lf/3b against righties. Stubbs should not play against righties, Frazier and Ludwick need a spot against lefties.
    "Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"

  12. #131
    Member Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    If you'd look back, I stated my thoughts on that. If you're looking for maximizing your offense in the lineup, then the Votto return lineups should have Stubbs in center and Frazier in right against lefties, then Bruce in RF and Heisey in CF against righties. Take your pick between two of Frazier, Ludwick and Rolen for lf/3b against righties. Stubbs should not play against righties, Frazier and Ludwick need a spot against lefties.
    OK, l got you. I'd still play Bruce in RF, but can see why you would say otherwise.

  13. #132
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Leads all LHB in homers vs lefties since the start 2010.
    Tied with the Grandyman.

  14. #133
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    I think I'm convinced. I've seen enough of Stubbs. I'll take the trade-off.

    Ludwick-Bruce-Frazier or Frazier-Bruce-Ludwick. Get it done, Reds.

    Put Phillips in the leadoff spot, drop Cozart to second and then you'll have Ludwick, Bruce and Frazier behind Votto.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  15. #134
    Member reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    If this happens, the most likely lineup from Dusty would IMO be:

    Phillips
    Cozart
    Votto
    Ludwick
    Bruce
    Frazier
    Rolen
    Hanigan

    I think you could make an argument to hit either Rolen or Frazier 2nd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    A little bit off topic, but do you guys think that Jesse Winker profiles more like Pete Rose or is he just the next Hal Morris??

  16. #135
    rest in power, king Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    I think you could make an argument to hit either Rolen or Frazier 2nd.
    I know I would.


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