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Thread: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

  1. #46
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Well, if both guys turn out to be horrendous defensive players at their new positions, the answer would be "more baseball games".
    Did I say stick with it if it doesn't work? Would a one week trial really lead to the end of our season? Stubbs is awful in center right now. Fact. This team should be willing to think outside the box to try and solve holes. If it doesn't work, then kill the idea. But I don't see the harm in trying it.

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    It's not like it has to be permanent. Do it on a trail basis. If Bruce's or Frazier's defense isn't satisfactory, then scratch the idea.

    I'm all for it. I'd play Ludwick in RF though.

    Phillips
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    Last edited by reds44; 08-26-2012 at 01:44 PM.
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  4. #48
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    Did I say stick with it if it doesn't work? Would a one week trial really lead to the end of our season? Stubbs is awful in center right now. Fact. This team should be willing to think outside the box to try and solve holes. If it doesn't work, then kill the idea. But I don't see the harm in trying it.
    I simply answered the question that you presented.

    It's just when I hear "what's the worst that can happen", the answer that I feel that isn't considered is "losing more baseball games". I didn't say that was the end of the world, I just honestly didn't think some people considered that the offensive upgrade in one position might be outweighed by the defensive downgrade at two positions.

    It's not fact that Stubbs is "awful". He's essentialyl a league average player. If every player on the Reds was as good as Stubbs, they would not be a good team. At the same time, every contending team has a guy in their line-up who is providing the same value, or worse than Stubbs.

    I think the answer is a strict platoon. The trial should be purely against righties, where Bruce and Frazier don't need to be good fielders at their new positions to come out just roughly even.

  5. #49
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I simply answered the question that you presented.

    It's just when I hear "what's the worst that can happen", the answer that I feel that isn't considered is "losing more baseball games". I didn't say that was the end of the world, I just honestly didn't think some people considered that the offensive upgrade in one position might be outweighed by the defensive downgrade at two positions.

    It's not fact that Stubbs is "awful". He's essentialyl a league average player. If every player on the Reds was as good as Stubbs, they would not be a good team. At the same time, every contending team has a guy in their line-up who is providing the same value, or worse than Stubbs.

    I think the answer is a strict platoon. The trial should be purely against righties, where Bruce and Frazier don't need to be good fielders at their new positions to come out just roughly even.
    No. Drew Stubbs is bad. Just, no.
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    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    No. Drew Stubbs is bad. Just, no.
    Thanks for the input.

    There's no question he is an awful hitter against right handed pitchers (which is unfortunately the biggest piece of the puzzle for an everyday player). And also does so in an ugly fashion.

    But the rest his game (ie. hitting vs lefties, fielding, plays an important position, base running) are all average or better.

    That's what makes him "not an awful player". He just needs to be used in positions to succeed (ie. starts against lefties, and relieves Frazier as defensive sub late in games to get an ideal defensive alignment to clsoe out games). If used correctly, he's a great platoon guy, and 4th outfielder when he doesnt play.

  7. #51
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Days like yesterday make me angry at Dusty for putting Stubbs 2nd in the order. And I'm sure it makes other fans mad too.

    He struggled the night before and looked clueless all day until he finally connected later on. I know many players look clueless at times, but Stubbs looks clueless most of the time...........as evidenced by him leading the league in K's last year.

    When you glance over at the Cardinals lineup and see their top 4 guys in the lineup batting over .300 with good OBP's, it's hard not to get even more upset at the placement of Stubbs batting 2nd. Drives me nuts.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Thanks for the input.

    There's no question he is an awful hitter against right handed pitchers (which is unfortunately the biggest piece of the puzzle for an everyday player). And also does so in an ugly fashion.

    But the rest his game (ie. hitting vs lefties, fielding, plays an important position, base running) are all average or better.

    That's what makes him "not an awful player". He just needs to be used in positions to succeed (ie. starts against lefties, and relieves Frazier as defensive sub late in games to get an ideal defensive alignment to clsoe out games). If used correctly, he's a great platoon guy, and 4th outfielder when he doesnt play.
    His UZR 150 for his career:
    2009: 22.9
    2010: 0.8
    2011: -2.2
    2012: -0.2

    He's an average defender. He has a .595 OPS against RHP. He has no business playing against right handed pitchers, ever.

    You called him league average and if every player was Drew Stubbs the Reds would be a good team. No. If every player was Drew Stubbs the Reds would be an average defensive team who never hit RHP.

    I'm not saying cut the guy. If the Reds do play Bruce in CF, whenever the Reds have a lead Stubbs is going to come in and play CF with Bruce going back to RF. But overall, he's a bad player.
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  9. #53
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    I'm not crazy about this idea, especially over the course of a long season, but in the short term, I think it's an experiment worth trying for a few games to see if it works. If it does, play out the rest of the season against RHP with it. Stubbs hits lefties well enough I'd keep him in there on those days, and take that opportunity once in a while to give Votto a rest or Scott Rolen one of his days off.

    If it doesn't work, the strategy could be abandoned rather easily.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  10. #54
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    His UZR 150 for his career:
    2009: 22.9
    2010: 0.8
    2011: -2.2
    2012: -0.2

    He's an average defender.
    I said "average of better".

    He has a .595 OPS against RHP. He has no business playing against right handed pitchers, ever.
    I said he is a terrible hitter against righties.

    You called him league average
    Rememeber, I didn't say "starter", I said "player" On pace for around 1.5 WAR, which is at worst, comprable with past seasons, it's a true statement.

    and if every player was Drew Stubbs the Reds would be a good team.
    You need to re-read my post. That is not what I said. I think you went into my post wanting to find something to disagree with, because it seems you aren't even reading my posts.

  11. #55
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    If every player on the Reds was as good as Stubbs, they would not be a good team.
    Whoops, missed the "not" part of that. Haha. My bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  12. #56
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    ?
    Are you even reading that quote? Seriously?

    Try actually reading it.

  13. #57
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    All I'm saying, it that I think some are not recognizing how bad the defense could be with Frazier in RF (a positon I'm not aware he's ever played before), and Bruce in CF (he projects to be bad in CF considering he's beena bout average in RF).

    Combined with the fact that Frazier is currently overachieving, we may not be fitting in a bat that isn't a lot more than a true talent .820 OPS.

    Lastly, having these guys put extra effort to work on new defensive positions this late in the season could make them lose focus on their overall hitting. I'm fine trying the idea, I just don't think the overall reward is THAT high, and I wish they had more time remaining in the season for Bruce and Frazier to work on things.

  14. #58
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    All I'm saying, it that I think some are not recognizing how bad the defense could be with Frazier in RF (a positon I'm not aware he's ever played before), and Bruce in CF (he projects to be bad in CF considering he's beena bout average in RF).

    Combined with the fact that Frazier is currently overachieving, we may not be fitting in a bat that isn't a lot more than a true talent .820 OPS.

    Lastly, having these guys put extra effort to work on new defensive positions this late in the season could make them lose focus on their overall hitting. I'm fine trying the idea, I just don't think the overall reward is THAT high, and I wish they had more time remaining in the season for Bruce and Frazier to work on things.
    It's not really much of an adjustment playing right versus playing left, or playing center versus playing right. There is no reason a major league player shouldn't be able to adjust to a different outfield position. Some might simply not have the tools to play center or right, but it's not like they have to do much different.

    If they do this, I hope Frazier is in left and Ludwick is in right but beyond that, it's worth trying, I suppose.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  15. #59
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    It's not like Bruce has never played CF, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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    Moderator Plus Plus's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    It's not like Bruce has never played CF, either.
    Frazier has played SS.
    Votto has played LF, RF, and C.
    Ludwick has played CF.
    Valdez has pitched.
    Arredondo has played SS.

    It is much less about whether or not somebody has played a position before, and much more about if the team will be better as a whole with players playing positions that they haven't sniffed in 4+ seasons. Again, as I said repeatedly in the Choo and Pence trade rumor threads, this is a team that has come out and said that they are dedicated to defense on the field, and there is no equation that has Bruce in CF that fits that philosophy.

    Baseball is really hard already- do we really need it to be even harder with players playing out of position?
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    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
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