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Thread: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

  1. #91
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffey012 View Post
    This is a great post. Stubbs biggest defensive asset is speed, and that is his main defensive asset. He is actually one of the worst centerfielders I have watched in terms of reading the ball off the bat. Hence a lot of those shallower balls you mention that he pulls up on. Stubbs is also below average around the wall, he tends to shy away from making contact with the outfield wall it seems, this negates his speed on some balls. Maybe it is just me, but how often do you see Stubbs get to a ball in GABP that most average CFers wouldn't get to?

    Bruce gets great reads off the bat, but doesn't have quite the speed of Stubbs. Bruce is capable of playing a league average or above average defense in CF in our ballpark (not a ton of ground to cover). I have never seen Frazier play in RF, but he is athletic enough to be capable of playing a decent RF, now whether he has the other skills outside of athletic ability, I do not know.

    The offensive trade off far outweighs the defensive trade off in my mind. Now if we are playing in a cavernous park, I leave Stubbs in CF.
    But this isn't spring training. Whether these folks have the tools to play these positions is one piece of the equation. Whether the Reds would make that change now is very different story.

    There's the famous situation when a Tigers player, Mickey Stanley, in 1968 was moved to shortstop to replace Ray Oyler, who was hitting below the Mendoza line. Stanley was moved there to get more offense in the lineup and he had never played SS before in the bigs. He played shortstop creditably at the end of the regular season and stayed there through the World Series.

    I don't think the Reds management would have played Stanley at shortstop.

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  3. #92
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    This reminds me of how Dusty would never replace Marshall as closer with Chapman.

  4. #93
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    This would be a very good discussion for the Reds to have with Bruce in spring training; I don't expect them to discuss it in the middle of a pennant race.

  5. #94
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    The Cardinals won the World Series last year with Matt Holiday in LF and Lance Berkman in RF.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  6. #95
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    The Cardinals won the World Series last year with Matt Holiday in LF and Lance Berkman in RF.
    We have a winner!

  7. #96
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    The Cardinals won the World Series last year with Matt Holiday in LF and Lance Berkman in RF.
    Neither played centerfield and both were better bats than Bruce/Frazier.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Neither played centerfield and both were better bats than Bruce/Frazier.
    I'd be willing to bet all 3 of Ludwick/Bruce/Frazier are better defenders than those 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  9. #98
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Neither played centerfield and both were better bats than Bruce/Frazier.
    While that may be true, it's not like it's a HUGE difference:

    2011
    Holliday - .912 OPS (154 wRC+)
    Berkman - .959 OPS (159 wRC+)

    2012
    Frazier - .904 OPS (140 wRC+)
    Bruce - .858 OPS (124 wRC+)

    The main difference in offensive output in the outfield, though, is going to come when comparing Ludwick and Jay:

    2011
    Jay - .768 OPS (112 wRC+)

    2012
    Ludwick - .912 OPS (140 wRC+)

    So by moving Bruce to the CF where he won't be a liability but he won't be great either, and having Frazier and Ludwick manning the corners (neither of which should be liabilities either, though not defensive stalwarts) you get a combined OPS of 2.674 for the Reds and 2.639 for the Cards...and a combined wRC+ of 404 for the Reds and 425 for the Cards.

    Ultimately not much difference...but I highly, highly doubt that you're going to get better defence out of Holliday, Jay and Berkman than Ludwick, Bruce and Frazier.
    I see great things in baseball. It's our game.

  10. #99
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Have people seen Bruce in right this year? No way I want that defense in center, ever... never ever.

    Have people seen Frazier in left this year? No way I want that defense in right, ever... Never ever.

    This team is 26 games over .500 and in first by 7 games because of their run prevention. Messing with that is just plain stupid.
    I agree. Bruce was tried in CF when he first came up.. He's below average there. Bruce is above average in RF however.

    More to this game, other than OPS.. Right now, defense in RF and CF is a relative strength.. I don't want to weaken both those spots.
    This team has enough offense to carry Stubbs' bat for the rest of the year.

    IMO, this experiment has too much downside to try it. It might work, but we only have a 6 game lead.. I don't want to see a few games tossed away by players playing out of position (which is certainly possible).
    I also think our young pitchers (Latos, Leake, and Homer) could potentially really feel the impact of this.. Heck, even though Cueto has controlled his emotions better this year, he'd get frustrated as well. Arroyo.. well.. with his fly ball tendencies, I want the best OF defense posssible. Heck, Latos seems to give up his share of flyball outs too (not looking up the numbers, just my gut feel)

    If the Reds really want to try this, next years' spring training is the time to do it, not now. I'm glad Dusty shot down this idea.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  11. #100
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    Did I say stick with it if it doesn't work? Would a one week trial really lead to the end of our season? Stubbs is awful in center right now. Fact. This team should be willing to think outside the box to try and solve holes. If it doesn't work, then kill the idea. But I don't see the harm in trying it.
    The problem I see is that we only have a 6 game lead.

    This experiment (even if for only 7-10 days) could result in an extra 3 losses under the right circumstances.

    Not to mention, Bruce has been heating up offensively of late. Throwing him into a new position might impact his offense.

    These ideas remind me of the time the Reds tried to move Aaron Boone to 2b.
    He had the atheletism to do it, and he had all spring training to get ready.. yet he never got comfortable, and it impacted his offense.

    If the Reds do nothing (leave Stubbs/Heisey in CF), they probably win the division.. Why risk giving the Cards a few games on defensive miscues?

    Let's say the experiment gave passable results.. Would we really want to put that weak defensive OF on the field for playoff games? The main correlators for WS winning teams is defense and bullpen.. Why weaken the defense?

    If the Reds were trailing the division leader by 4 games at this point, I could see trying this experiment as a desperation move, but I don't want to tamper with success now.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  12. #101
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Playing Jay Bruce in CF would never cost the Reds 3 games in a week. Again, he did it in the minors and he's done it in the majors. Despite some hiccups this year, he's been one of the best defensive RFers in baseball over the course of his career. It's not exactly Javier Valentin played 3rd base.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  13. #102
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Playing Jay Bruce in CF would never cost the Reds 3 games in a week. Again, he did it in the minors and he's done it in the majors. Despite some hiccups this year, he's been one of the best defensive RFers in baseball over the course of his career. It's not exactly Javier Valentin played 3rd base.
    Bruce has been a negative UZR defender for two seasons now, both exclusively in right field- for what that's worth.
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment
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  14. #103
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Darren Lewis - Marvin Benard - Daryl Hamilton - Calvin Murray - Tsuyoshi Shinjo - Corey Patterson - Juan Pierre - Willy Taveras - Drew Stubbs.

    I just don't see it happening.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  15. #104
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus Plus View Post
    Bruce has been a negative UZR defender for two seasons now, both exclusively in right field- for what that's worth.
    He was a +3.6 in CF and a -5.1 in RF as a rookie too. Maybe he's better in CF.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  16. #105
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    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Also, (correct me if I'm wrong) it's now been stated in this thread that Ludwick, Stubbs, and Bruce are all negative defenders this year according to UZR. Wouldn't that blow a hole in the "don't move anybody because the Reds play good OF defense" theory?
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.


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