Turn Off Ads?
Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 5678910 LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 138

Thread: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

  1. #121
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,722

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by 11larkin11 View Post
    I think it's more because he's a fantastic defender, despite what the flawed defensive metrics say. If Stubbs was batting 8th playing everyday in CF, people wouldn't have a problem with him. See who Atlanta's everyday #8 hitter is.
    I just don't see a "fantastic defender" when I see Stubbs. I see a good defender who can cover a lot of ground but leaves a lot of outs on the table because he pulls up too soon and plays balls on a hop. I don't remember many running catches on balls in front of him. He pulls up while the ball is still 10 to 15 feet in the air and plays it on a hop. One more step and he'd catch it in the air. Drives me nuts.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #122
    Member membengal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Baltimore
    Posts
    8,991

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Leads all LHB in homers vs lefties since the start 2010.
    Inconvenient facts...

  4. #123
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,079

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by 11larkin11 View Post
    I think it's more because he's a fantastic defender, despite what the flawed defensive metrics say. If Stubbs was batting 8th playing everyday in CF, people wouldn't have a problem with him. See who Atlanta's everyday #8 hitter is.
    Brandon Phillips and Scotty Rolen are fantastic defenders. Drew Stubbs is fast. They are two entirely different things. His speed makes up for a lot of centerfield skills that arent full developed such as getting reads off the bat, getting good jumps, knowing when to pull up on a hop or go for the catch, and playing around the wall. Stubbs has the speed and athletic ability to be an Andruw Jones (in his prime) type defender in CF, instead he is around average.

    That is a big reason why I don't see a big drop off in defense, Stubbs isn't as good in CF as a lot think he is. We aren't removing an all-world defender out of the lineup.

    If they chat with Bruce and he is comfortable with giving it a few games, it would be wise to give it a try, and see how it works out.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  5. #124
    Member Nasty_Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    1st Place... Finally
    Posts
    1,190

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Just watching Heisey in CF makes me appreciate what Stubbs gives the Reds defensively... He rarely misplays a ball and his arm is strong and accurate. I think one of the underrated things that Stubbs does well is hit his cut off men, and throws to the correct base. You don't see him air mailing the guy and allowing the other runners to take an extra base. He's also quick and accurate about getting the ball back in from the gaps. He may not pull the all out Free like dive, but his play in CF is extremely valuable IMO... I just wish he were hitting at the bottom of the order.
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

  6. #125
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    4,716

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Stubbs is not an elite defensive CF by any means. He's good. He's above average. He's fast. But he's by no means a "great" defensive CF. He doesn't come in on balls very well. It's a tough play when a line drive is hit in front of you, yet is close enough to be caught. Some CFs are good at it, most aren't. Stubbs falls in the latter category. Often he doesn't get good jumps on balls. When he does, it's a thing of beauty. He can cover the gaps with ease. It's fun to watch and that's why some fans overrate Stubbs' defensive ability. Occasionally he will make a spectacular play. He also has a strong arm. But he's also not very good at playing balls close to the wall (which is another difficult thing to do, but if we're talking about being an elite CF you need to do those things) however he has improved in that area.

  7. #126
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,603

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Leads all LHB in homers vs lefties since the start 2010.
    Bruce has been struggling all season against lefties, which is why I called it recent. I know what his history is, but counting stats also include more opportunities. He doesn't get platooned or pinch hit for against situational lefties much and can run into one against a lefty every now and then. If he is on a tear, it doesn't matter if its lefty or righty out there.

    Finally, I'd be more impressed with your point if you provided something other than "most since..." since that gives little context.

    Things like 115 points less in slugging % this season against lefties with a pretty healthy sample size might seem more relevant than counting the number of homers since some point in time, for example. 30% strikeout rate against lefties, 21% against righties is another example. Shall we mention an OBP under .300 against lefties vs. .349 against righties seems relevant as well, for context sake.
    Last edited by traderumor; 08-28-2012 at 11:36 AM.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  8. #127
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    4,689

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Bruce has been struggling all season against lefties, which is why I called it recent. I know what his history is, but counting stats also include more opportunities. He doesn't get platooned or pinch hit for against situational lefties much and can run into one against a lefty every now and then. If he is on a tear, it doesn't matter if its lefty or righty out there.

    Finally, I'd be more impressed with your point if you provided something other than "most since..." since that gives little context.
    A .750ish 760ish OPS vs. lefties isn't really struglling.

  9. #128
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,603

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    A .750ish 760ish OPS vs. lefties isn't really struglling.
    .227/.294/.440 = .733 (.711 against lefty starters) is his 2012 lefty split. My eyeballs told me the same thing from watching 90% of the games. So your point is? Are we looking for everyday players getting on base less than a .300 clip in 1/3 of their ABs? It could be an off year, but his lefty numbers are not dramatically worse this year than his career. If you're trying to get the best offensive lineup out there against lefties, wouldn't it make sense to take advantage of Stubbs only strengths (can hit lefties sometimes and cover some ground that Frazier can't) and put the lefty killers in the lineup?

    Bruce is better than some lefty vs. lefty, but let's not pretend that a strong case can't be built for sitting him against lefties on any given day.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  10. #129
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    4,689

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    .227/.294/.440 = .733 (.711 against lefty starters) is his 2012 lefty split. My eyeballs told me the same thing from watching 90% of the games. So your point is? Are we looking for everyday players getting on base less than a .300 clip in 1/3 of their ABs? It could be an off year, but his lefty numbers are not dramatically worse this year than his career. If you're trying to get the best offensive lineup out there against lefties, wouldn't it make sense to take advantage of Stubbs only strengths (can hit lefties sometimes and cover some ground that Frazier can't) and put the lefty killers in the lineup?

    Bruce is better than some lefty vs. lefty, but let's not pretend that a strong case can't be built for sitting him against lefties on any given day.
    The last I had checked, his OPS was around .750, which I now see is .733.

    In 2011, it was .804. In 2010, it was .899. That would put his 3 year average around .800.

    Is your point that you'd rather see Frazier play RF against lefties than Bruce? I hope it isn't suggesting Heisey should play over him.

    Even given the numbers, I would not play Frazier over Bruce against LHP's.

  11. #130
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,603

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    The last I had checked, his OPS was around .750, which I now see is .733.

    In 2011, it was .804. In 2010, it was .899. That would put his 3 year average around .800.

    Is your point that you'd rather see Frazier play RF against lefties than Bruce? I hope it isn't suggesting Heisey should play over him.

    Even given the numbers, I would not play Frazier over Bruce against LHP's.
    If you'd look back, I stated my thoughts on that. If you're looking for maximizing your offense in the lineup, then the Votto return lineups should have Stubbs in center and Frazier in right against lefties, then Bruce in RF and Heisey in CF against righties. Take your pick between two of Frazier, Ludwick and Rolen for lf/3b against righties. Stubbs should not play against righties, Frazier and Ludwick need a spot against lefties.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  12. #131
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    4,689

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    If you'd look back, I stated my thoughts on that. If you're looking for maximizing your offense in the lineup, then the Votto return lineups should have Stubbs in center and Frazier in right against lefties, then Bruce in RF and Heisey in CF against righties. Take your pick between two of Frazier, Ludwick and Rolen for lf/3b against righties. Stubbs should not play against righties, Frazier and Ludwick need a spot against lefties.
    OK, l got you. I'd still play Bruce in RF, but can see why you would say otherwise.

  13. #132
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,296

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Leads all LHB in homers vs lefties since the start 2010.
    Tied with the Grandyman.

  14. #133
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, Ga.
    Posts
    10,497

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    I think I'm convinced. I've seen enough of Stubbs. I'll take the trade-off.

    Ludwick-Bruce-Frazier or Frazier-Bruce-Ludwick. Get it done, Reds.

    Put Phillips in the leadoff spot, drop Cozart to second and then you'll have Ludwick, Bruce and Frazier behind Votto.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  15. #134
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    25,312

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    If this happens, the most likely lineup from Dusty would IMO be:

    Phillips
    Cozart
    Votto
    Ludwick
    Bruce
    Frazier
    Rolen
    Hanigan

    I think you could make an argument to hit either Rolen or Frazier 2nd.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  16. #135
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,690

    Re: Bruce to CF, Frazier to RF on Votto return?

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    I think you could make an argument to hit either Rolen or Frazier 2nd.
    I know I would.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25