Stubbs

[scott91575]

Even if I agreed with you that his defense has not been that good this year, average defense would still be better than our other choices. Heisey is below average out there and we have no reason to believe Bruce can be anything above terrible in CF defensively.

With that said, Dusty has sat better players than him for stretches (even did it with Bruce just last month) so I think that's a decent suggestion. When it counts though, I would like to see him in CF and low in the order and I think we will.

Actually, I would make the case Heisey is not below average in CF. He had one bad game recently and people remember that. Yet he has been above average when playing CF IMO. Prior to this year I would say Stubbs was superior, but like I mentioned, he has not been to that same level this year.

I can only guess Stubbs is dealing with some mental issues, both at the plate and in the field. Now this is only guessing, but he seems to be the kind of guy that beats him self up mentally. He needs to go to the Brandon Phillips school of playing mentality. Phillips can make the biggest bonehead play and then turn around and make the defensive play of the year. Things just don't get to him. On the other hand Stubbs seems to be affected for a long time by his mistakes and it just keeps on building up.

[MrRedLegger]

Stubbs is a professional athlete who is struggling...he doesn't need to read this forum to know what his problems are. He certainly is aware, and we can only hope that he's working very hard to fix it. I understand that being a former 1st round pick comes with a binky and a cradle when he's in the big show, but the scouts did rank him very high when he was coming up. That does mean something.

What we're forgetting is that Stubbs brings a great glove and arm (and legs) to center field. He adds to this team's strengths which has been greatly overlooked. When a guy is at the plate he gets 99.9% of the audience's and game's attention, so it's easy to scrutinize this aspect of the game. We've been talking about the team having average to above average bats this year, certainly not our strongest point. I'm scratching my head why Stubbs is getting this much flack when the team, as a whole, isn't doing that well at the plate. (Although since the break, without looking up numbers, I'd say we're doing very well on offense)

Could Stubbs be batting later in the lineup? Yes. When someone else gets on base and only gets to third on a Votto or BP double will we be wishing that it was instead Stubbs on base? Yes. Will we brag about our center fielder when he leaves a trail of fire in the outfield going for a ball, and then gunning a runner out at home? Yes. Absolutely Yes.

[scott91575]

Stubbs is a professional athlete who is struggling...he doesn't need to read this forum to know what his problems are. He certainly is aware, and we can only hope that he's working very hard to fix it. I understand that being a former 1st round pick comes with a binky and a cradle when he's in the big show, but the scouts did rank him very high when he was coming up. That does mean something.

What we're forgetting is that Stubbs brings a great glove and arm (and legs) to center field. He adds to this team's strengths which has been greatly overlooked. When a guy is at the plate he gets 99.9% of the audience's and game's attention, so it's easy to scrutinize this aspect of the game. We've been talking about the team having average to above average bats this year, certainly not our strongest point. I'm scratching my head why Stubbs is getting this much flack when the team, as a whole, isn't doing that well at the plate. (Although since the break, without looking up numbers, I'd say we're doing very well on offense)

Could Stubbs be batting later in the lineup? Yes. When someone else gets on base and only gets to third on a Votto or BP double will we be wishing that it was instead Stubbs on base? Yes. Will we brag about our center fielder when he leaves a trail of fire in the outfield going for a ball, and then gunning a runner out at home? Yes. Absolutely Yes.

I understand your way of thinking, but this is not just below average play. This is bottom of the barrel, would not be starting for 28 other teams play. It's professional baseball and a team leading the division. The Reds simply cannot keep trotting him out there in hopes he figures it out. Maybe if the Reds lock up the division and home field. At worst they need to took into some platoon out in CF with Heisey getting starts vs. most righties (Stubbs stats vs. righties is beyond brutal and no amount of defense makes up for it). If he picks it up getting to play 1/2 the time then they can look into playing him more again. Yet putting him out there every day is simply not helping. Maybe only playing him when he has a statistically better chance of succeeding will help. Now, I don't think he will OPS .486 the rest of the year like he has in August. Yet his poor play has not simply been a 1 month thing.

[Jefferson24]

Stubbs is a professional athlete who is struggling...he doesn't need to read this forum to know what his problems are.

This is by no means a new problem and I am sure he has tried hard to correct the issue for many many years. That doesn't change the fact that his strikeouts are a problem and they are a problem he can't fix. If it were fixable it would have been fixed by now.

Time to move on in my opinion.

We have had a great year but I am greedy and I see this position as our weakest link. I want the Reds to be the best they can be and I think center field is the easiest upgrade this team can do.

[markymark69]

What I don't get is the thinking by some that moving Stubbs down in the line-up makes his 0-4 with three strikeouts okay or somehow acceptable. I mean he truly only bats second (in the order) once in the game. In the 7th hole (which seems to be the preferred spot) he would likely have more RBI chances, which would make his strikeouts that much worse in my opinion.

Arguing about where he bats in the line-up is pointless - Dusty is going to play him and we as fans have to live with it. I know this will lead to more Dusty is an idiot threads - but I'm looking at one thing - overall record - I thought winning was the only thing that really counted - I've learned otherwise on this board.

Not only do the Reds have to win, Dusty has to put everyone in the line-up or on the field according to our liking and all of those players cannot make errors, cannot strikeout, etc. The pitchers can't walk anyone or give up home runs, etc.

Folks the Reds are 80-52 (.606) - enjoy it. Would the record be better if Stubbs weren't playing? I can't imagine it would much better than 60 percent winning percentage and the best record in the National League.

They are having a remarkable season and many on this board still continue to nitpick. Can we give it a rest?

[scott91575]

What I don't get is the thinking by some that moving Stubbs down in the line-up makes his 0-4 with three strikeouts okay or somehow acceptable. I mean he truly only bats second (in the order) once in the game. In the 7th hole (which seems to be the preferred spot) he would likely have more RBI chances, which would make his strikeouts that much worse in my opinion.

Arguing about where he bats in the line-up is pointless - Dusty is going to play him and we as fans have to live with it. I know this will lead to more Dusty is an idiot threads - but I'm looking at one thing - overall record - I thought winning was the only thing that really counted - I've learned otherwise on this board.

Not only do the Reds have to win, Dusty has to put everyone in the line-up or on the field according to our liking and all of those players cannot make errors, cannot strikeout, etc. The pitchers can't walk anyone or give up home runs, etc.

Folks the Reds are 80-52 (.606) - enjoy it. Would the record be better if Stubbs weren't playing? I can't imagine it would much better than 60 percent winning percentage and the best record in the National League.

They are having a remarkable season and many on this board still continue to nitpick. Can we give it a rest?

No. Teams should always look to improve. Even if they have won every single game, you don't just sit there and say "well, we are undefeated so therefore there is no room for improvement."

This team has an obvious area that needs improvement. There is no problem discussing ways the team could improve. If you don't enjoy it, then these threads are not for you. Start a "let's sit back and enjoy this'" thread. I personally would find that rather boring, but if that is your thing then by all means go do it. I won't stop you or even show up in the thread to criticize you. I suggest you do the same thing with people who like to talk about this type of thing.

[MrRedLegger]

It's not about the record. I think we all want to see our center fielder do well, and although I think everyone agrees he is needed in the field, what is debatable is that his bat could be later in the lineup or not there at all. Personally, I think he should stat in the 2-hole. Dusty stuck with Ludwick and Rolen and look at what they have done for this team. Same argument could be made for Frazier, as Dusty has platooned him all over the field. Like a butterfly hatching from a cocoon, Stubbs can painfully push his way through this, swell his wings, and hopefully take off. (corny I know, but I think Skip is thinking something alone these lines)

[scott91575]

It's not about the record. I think we all want to see our center fielder do well, and although I think everyone agrees he is needed in the field, what is debatable is that his bat could be later in the lineup or not there at all. Personally, I think he should stat in the 2-hole. Dusty stuck with Ludwick and Rolen and look at what they have done for this team. Same argument could be made for Frazier, as Dusty has platooned him all over the field. Like a butterfly hatching from a cocoon, Stubbs can painfully push his way through this, swell his wings, and hopefully take off. (corny I know, but I think Skip is thinking something alone these lines)

He also stuck with Willy Taveras and Corey Patterson.

[malcontent]

As much as I bash Baker, IMO this mess is largely Jocketty's fault.

Stubbs has been exposed for years and yet Jocketty hasn't moved him or replaced him in the lineup with a CF that can actually make contact.

I'm sure he's had chances to move him (in the past), but he's sat on his rear and didn't get it done. Now Stubbs' trade value is probably zero.

And we still get to watch his not-a-clue at-bats five times a game.

His offensive plate appearances aside, Stubbs deserves to be benched solely for his stubborn unwillingness to change his approach at the plate.

[malcontent]

He also stuck with Willy Taveras and Corey Patterson.

Prosecution Exhibits 1A and 1B.

[BungleBengals]

I do not know how Dusty can argue that we keep Stubbs in. Yes we are the best team in baseball, but at some point you have to change things up. Just because a team is in first or has a better record does not translate to wins. We are definitely going to have to change something by October, because while he is a good defender, he offense is a killer! Batting him second gives him close to 5 ABs a game, which in his recent but not unusual slump, will usually end up at 0-5 or 1-5 for the game with 3 Ks if not a Golden Sombrero.

0-5 (5 outs) is almost 2 innings worth of outs. That wouldn't be too bad, but his K's do not allow our runners to at least tag up or move to other bases either.

What I do not understand is how Dusty can think Stubbs' defense is worth all of this? I think Bruce would do fine in CF, especially with his arm, plus the dropoff of defense in CF from going from Stubbs to Bruce is no where close to the offense gained by keeping Frazier and adding Votto.

[Red Buckeye]

It's not about the record. I think we all want to see our center fielder do well, and although I think everyone agrees he is needed in the field, what is debatable is that his bat could be later in the lineup or not there at all. Personally, I think he should stat in the 2-hole. Dusty stuck with Ludwick and Rolen and look at what they have done for this team. Same argument could be made for Frazier, as Dusty has platooned him all over the field. Like a butterfly hatching from a cocoon, Stubbs can painfully push his way through this, swell his wings, and hopefully take off. (corny I know, but I think Skip is thinking something alone these lines)

Yes but the difference is that Ludwick and Rolen were able to turn it around in a few months. Stubbs has been trying to turn it around since 2011, and his average has gotten worse every year since he started here. He is degressing and still hasn't made adjustments at the plate even after 3 years. His offense is a major liabilty.

The Reds need to give Heisey some time in CF and not just a spot game here and there, but a nice 3 weeks of starting everyday in CF. If he is so horrible fielding that Stubbs offensive troubles can be overlooked then fine, put K Stubbs back in. I have a feeling Hi C would be able to hold his own in CF and there is no debate who is better at the plate.

[Who Dey Time]

Prosecution Exhibits 1A and 1B.

In 2008, the options on the roster after Patterson were Hopper, Freel and Dickerson. Garbage.

In 2009, the options after Taveras were Dickerson, McDonald and Balentein until Stubbs was a late season call up. Pure trash.

In 2012, the option after Stubbs is Heisey. Uninspiring to say the least.

Some have argued that Dusty give too much rope to certain guys and they might have merit but only to a point since you have to condsider that, despite the starter's struggles, plan B wasn't really worth putting out there to begin with. Is that a manager issue or a FO issue?

[malcontent]

In 2008, the options on the roster after Patterson were Hopper, Freel and Dickerson. Garbage.

In 2009, the options after Taveras were Dickerson, McDonald and Balentein until Stubbs was a late season call up. Pure trash.

In 2012, the option after Stubbs is Heisey. Uninspiring to say the least.

Some have argued that Dusty give too much rope to certain guys and they might have merit but only to a point since you have to condsider that, despite the starter's struggles, plan B wasn't really worth putting out there to begin with. Is that a manager issue or a FO issue?

An FO issue. So long as the manager didn't push for those guys in the first place.....

[rgslone]

Those who say quit worrying about Stubbs and just look at the record, are right in the big picture. Where Stubbs bats in the order is a tweaking issue, and probably not a major difference maker. Still, as fans we like to have things to dissect and obsess about. That doesn't mean we're not enjoying the season or ecstatic with the Reds this season.

With that being said, my take on Stubbs has always been that he should never bat higher than 6th in any major league lineup. In the bottom of the lineup he'll have less plate appearances, and when he accidentally gets on base his base-stealing may have some value in front of Hannigan. It would be even better if Stubbs only played against LH pitching - unless his defense is so far superior to Heisey and Bruce in CF that he really needs to play more often for the benefit of the team.

That's my take on using Stubbs this season, because, regardless of what the fans think, he is going to continue to play; and hopefully he can have some luck and help the Reds reach the World Series. In my opinion, however, this should really be the last year Stubbs ever finds himself on a major league roster. I don't think he would be a wise choice for a 4th or 5th outfielder on any team. He can't hit, he has never hit, and he will never hit. He's too old to be called a prospect or expect significant improvement. He is what he is. And unless he can be converted to a pitcher, he simply lacks the pitch recognition skills to be a major league player.