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Thread: Optimal Lineup

  1. #1
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Optimal Lineup

    Everyone is talking about how good the Cardinals offense is, but I think our offense could be just as good if Dusty would change the lineup. Look the Cards offense, they have what used to be their leadoff guys batting 7th and 8th. If we did something like that our offensive production would be a lot better. Instead we have a rookie and K-king batting 1 and 2. While I like Cozart and think he is a decent batter, he also has games where he goes 0-5 and Stubbs usually has games where he goes 0-5 with 3 to 4 K's. They would do a whole lot better batting 7th and 8th where they will be pressured and they will see better pitches from a tired pitcher too. Not to mention you can have 2 speedy guys on base for a pitcher to bunt over and leave them in scoring position for Phillips or Frazier to bat in.

    If we had Phillips leadoff followed by Frazier, then we have 2 guys who could get on base in front of Ludwick now and Votto later. Plus you have Bruce, Rolen, and Hanigan still to bat as the heart of the lineup. I think any change where we move Cozart and Stubbs out of the top of the order could produce the runs needed to run with high powered offenses like the Cards.

    Now:
    1. Phillips 2B
    2. Frazier 1B
    3. Ludwick LF
    4. Bruce RF
    5. Rolen 3B
    6. Hanigan C
    7. Cozart SS
    8. Stubbs CF
    9. Pitcher

    Later:
    1. Phillips 2B
    2. Frazier RF/CF
    3. Votto 1B
    4. Ludwick LF
    5. Bruce RF/CF
    6. Rolen 3B
    7. Cozart SS
    8. Hanigan C
    9. Pitcher

    I moved Hanigan back to 8 here because if Cozart does get on base, you know Hanigan can bat him in.
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  3. #2
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Frazier can't play CF for us, Bruce could.

    1. Phillips 2B
    2. Cozart SS
    3. Votto 1B
    4. Ludwick LF/RF
    5. Frazier 3B/1B/LF
    6. Bruce RF/CF
    7. Rolen 3B
    8. Hanigan C
    9. Pitcher

    When Stubbs plays you can drop him down and bump others up.

  4. #3
    Retro-Gamer Krawhitham's Avatar
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    I moved Hanigan back to 8 here because if Cozart does get on base, you know Hanigan can bat him in.
    He has 17 RBI this season, yeah he is really raking

    His season average is .287
    His average with runners in scoring position is .231


    I'm not so sure he can bat him in

  5. #4
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawhitham View Post
    He has 17 RBI this season, yeah he is really raking

    His season average is .287
    His average with runners in scoring position is .231


    I'm not so sure he can bat him in
    Which would make him a perfect 2-hole hitter.

  6. #5
    Retro-Gamer Krawhitham's Avatar
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Trajinous View Post
    Which would make him a perfect 2-hole hitter.
    If he was not so slow I would agree, he is slow even for a catcher

  7. #6
    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    The reason Hanigan has 17 RBIs is because no one gets on base in front of him. Rolen is too slow to bat in from second base and Frazier usually clears the bases anways. Not to mention that Hanigan gets walked a ton so they can get to the pitcher. He is slow, I will give you that, but you cannot say he sucks because he doesn't have a lot of RBIs. He is batting in the 8 hole and has a lot things going against him for him to produce a lot of RBIs.

    I think he is a very disciplined batter. He is no Votto, but he knows the strike zone very well which helps him draw walks, and he does not strikeout a whole lot either.
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  8. #7
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawhitham View Post
    If he was not so slow I would agree, he is slow even for a catcher
    But he gets on base more than the supposed fastest player on the team.
    That Joey Votto is some kind of Man Candy!

    "For them to boo me like that, it lets me know they dream about me at night. -- Brandon Phillips on Cards fans.

  9. #8
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    The reason Hanigan has 17 RBIs is because no one gets on base in front of him. Rolen is too slow to bat in from second base and Frazier usually clears the bases anways. Not to mention that Hanigan gets walked a ton so they can get to the pitcher. He is slow, I will give you that, but you cannot say he sucks because he doesn't have a lot of RBIs. He is batting in the 8 hole and has a lot things going against him for him to produce a lot of RBIs.

    I think he is a very disciplined batter. He is no Votto, but he knows the strike zone very well which helps him draw walks, and he does not strikeout a whole lot either.
    The question is how much of that discipline is a result of the 8 hole. When the pitcher is often of the verge of giving you an IBB to get to a guy batting .067 with no power you see a different set of pitches than you would when the guy wants to get you out to avoid seeing Joey Votto.

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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Since it's a given that the first 3 or four guys in the lineup will see one more AB on average each game, wouldn't the best lineup have your best 3 or 4 hitters at the top of the order? Riddle me that Dusty.
    Last edited by IamRV; 08-28-2012 at 06:10 PM.

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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by BurgervilleBuck View Post
    But he gets on base more than the supposed fastest player on the team.
    Exactly! Stubbs can't steal second from the dugout....

    Even an average speed Hanigan can score from first off a Votto double. Stubbs can't do that while sitting on a bench.

  12. #11
    Member jback76's Avatar
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    No manager is going to hit someone as slow as Hanigan any higher up in the lineup then Dusty has been. Hanigan is a good hitter right where Dusty has him, 8th. Phillips should be batting leadoff when Votto comes back, and I believe Dusty is going to make that change.

  13. #12
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Hanigan gets walks because the pitcher is hitting behind him. If Stubbs hits 8th his OBP would be much higher. Hanigan hitting 2nd is a 6-4-3 special against ground ball pitchers. If Dusty had Rickey Henderson in his prime and had him leading off the Baker Haters would be critical of the move.

  14. #13
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    It is simply untrue that Ryan Hanigan's on-base percentage is a by-product of batting 8th in the lineup and that his OBP is so high because he walks a lot in front of the pitcher. Hanigan's OBP is .380 this year. It is .373 for his career. Explain this to me then. Why aren't other 8-hole hitters producing similar OBP numbers? Mesoraco's OBP in the 8 hole is .299. Wilson Valdez has almost 600 career at-bats in the 8 spot and his OBP there is .296. (I am confused by the number of at-bats he has in the 8 spot too. He is not a catcher. It has me non-plussed.) The OBP for all N.L. hitters who have hit 8th this season is .307. And that just happens to be lowest OBP for any spot in the lineup aside from 9th, the domain of pitchers.
    The fact is that Ryan Hanigan is a professional hitter. He almost always has a professional at-bat. If you take him out of the 8-hole, he is still gonna get on base regularly.
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    It is simply untrue that Ryan Hanigan's on-base percentage is a by-product of batting 8th in the lineup and that his OBP is so high because he walks a lot in front of the pitcher. Hanigan's OBP is .380 this year. It is .373 for his career. Explain this to me then. Why aren't other 8-hole hitters producing similar OBP numbers? Mesoraco's OBP in the 8 hole is .299. Wilson Valdez has almost 600 career at-bats in the 8 spot and his OBP there is .296. (I am confused by the number of at-bats he has in the 8 spot too. He is not a catcher. It has me non-plussed.) The OBP for all N.L. hitters who have hit 8th this season is .307. And that just happens to be lowest OBP for any spot in the lineup aside from 9th, the domain of pitchers.
    The fact is that Ryan Hanigan is a professional hitter. He almost always has a professional at-bat. If you take him out of the 8-hole, he is still gonna get on base regularly.
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    Retro-Gamer Krawhitham's Avatar
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    Re: Optimal Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by BurgervilleBuck View Post
    But he gets on base more than the supposed fastest player on the team.
    and when Votto hits his double he will be sitting on 3rd when anyone else would have scored. It will take and extra hit it get a run scored


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