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Thread: What do YOU want to talk about?

  1. #106
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Then why even type it? All it did was stir one poster to defend himself against accustations you were apparently not making against him. Its bush league.
    Because I believe, as a general statement, UZR and other metrics which use UZR get used moreso when it fits an argument. The metric is very fickle and depending on the year it can account for huge swings in "production".

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  3. #107
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Because I believe, as a general statement, UZR and other metrics which use UZR get used moreso when it fits an argument. The metric is very fickle and depending on the year it can account for huge swings in "production".
    I believe as a general statement that this is incorrect.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #108
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    The baseline for UZR and dewans is relative to their peers...
    It would seem then that UZR is being misused in discussions to assert that A fielder is not a good defender because he has a negative UZR. That wasn't my point, but its something I take from that revelation.

    As for the "eyes vs. spreadsheet" dichotomy, I also understand UZR data uses human observation to determine fielding events. Is this understanding correct? If so, it would seem to me that critics of fielding metrics as unreliable have this as a major flaw in the gathering of data. Maybe I don't understand the process. Enlighten, if able.
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  5. #109
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    I would offer:

    • Good fielders can have bad years.
    • A partial season's worth of UZR data isn't much better than, say roughly 1.5-2 months worth of batting data.
    • Bruce can be a fine fielder AND not be as good as his peers.
    This is much more helpful and in line with my thinking on the whole discussion. At some level, it is good to know how a guy stacks up, but I'm still smelling a lot of subjectivity in defensive discussions that are represented as fact based, using defensive metrics as a key arguing point. I would contend that its still too early in that ballgame to present UZR or other d rating in "truth" fashion. That is probably where eddabs is coming from.
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  6. #110
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    This is much more helpful and in line with my thinking on the whole discussion. At some level, it is good to know how a guy stacks up, but I'm still smelling a lot of subjectivity in defensive discussions that are represented as fact based, using defensive metrics as a key arguing point. I would contend that its still too early in that ballgame to present UZR or other d rating in "truth" fashion. That is probably where eddabs is coming from.
    Agree.

  7. #111
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    It would seem then that UZR is being misused in discussions to assert that A fielder is not a good defender because he has a negative UZR. That wasn't my point, but its something I take from that revelation.
    Season and less than season long samples aren't very useful. If that's your qualm, I agree: like all stats, it's not useful in small samples except as a curiosity.

    As for the "eyes vs. spreadsheet" dichotomy, I also understand UZR data uses human observation to determine fielding events. Is this understanding correct? If so, it would seem to me that critics of fielding metrics as unreliable have this as a major flaw in the gathering of data. Maybe I don't understand the process. Enlighten, if able.
    I believe the process is to watch the video of every play from as many angles as possible so as to determine starting position, "first step," et al. and enter the required data.

    There is no separation of "eyes" and "spreadsheets." The difference with the UZR "eyes" is that they "see" all the plays. The difference with the "spreadsheets" is that they "remember" and compare all the plays.

    Our brains can do neither.

    If you are truly interested in learning more about UZR, I invite you to read the primer.

    Note, quoting UZR and using it as a measure doesn't mean one thinks it's "perfect." No stat is. But let's not let perfect be the enemy of good or by proxy, the best that we have.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  8. #112
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    This is much more helpful and in line with my thinking on the whole discussion. At some level, it is good to know how a guy stacks up, but I'm still smelling a lot of subjectivity in defensive discussions that are represented as fact based, using defensive metrics as a key arguing point.
    I think you should read the primer. UZR allows for a lot of flexibility when presenting the "end number." It's actually quite interesting to look at the components (you can see these on Fangraphs) to see how many of a certain kind of play a fielder has to deal with.

    It's also interesting how UZR encourages regression based on factors like aging, "spikey" data and other things. You don't think Jay Bruce was a 19.7 fielder in 2010? Give him partial credit.

    Me, with my regression thinks he's probably above average. My eyes tell me he's not as smooth in the field as he seemed when he first came up.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  9. #113
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    This is much more helpful and in line with my thinking on the whole discussion. At some level, it is good to know how a guy stacks up, but I'm still smelling a lot of subjectivity in defensive discussions that are represented as fact based, using defensive metrics as a key arguing point. I would contend that its still too early in that ballgame to present UZR or other d rating in "truth" fashion. That is probably where eddabs is coming from.
    He specifically argued that people only use UZR when it fits their argument.

    There's alot of subjectivity in everything. It's a favorite criticism of defensive metrics when they don't support a position.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  10. #114
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    He specifically argued that people only use UZR when it fits their argument.

    There's alot of subjectivity in everything. It's a favorite criticism of defensive metrics when they don't support a position.
    I think it gets abused by some. It is used both in the wrong way and in an inconsistent manner.

  11. #115
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I think it gets abused by some. It is used both in the wrong way and in an inconsistent manner.
    And it's used correctly and consistently by a great many. So again as pointed out earlier unless the above argument is applied to specific examples, it's largely a meaningless platitude.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #116
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    I would like to talk about the fact that this thread was partially created in response that people didn't want to talk about stats and it has now turned into a thread about stats.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  13. #117
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I would like to talk about the fact that this thread was partially created in response that people didn't want to talk about stats and it has now turned into a thread about stats.
    at least we got 12 hours of fun out of the thread and another chance to see the Mariner bullpen boat. I liked the smoked sausage umpire post, totally forgot about that Riverfront scoreboard classic.

  14. #118
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I would like to talk about the fact that this thread was partially created in response that people didn't want to talk about stats and it has now turned into a thread about stats.
    Point taken, apologies.

  15. #119
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I would like to talk about the fact that this thread was partially created in response that people didn't want to talk about stats and it has now turned into a thread about stats.
    Dungeons and Dragons nerds snicker when they see people bickering about baseball defensive metrics.
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  16. #120
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: What do YOU want to talk about?

    Baseball would be a good idea. Not much of that on here today.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


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