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Thread: AL mvp....

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  1. #1
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    AL mvp....

    Everyplace I've read/heard it seems people are ready to crown Mike Trout the RoY AND mvp this season. I'll admit, he's got a pretty darned good case for it. But Miguel Cabrera has really snuck up on me. This late in the season, we've got a legitimate triple crown candidate.

    1st in BA (.333 over Trout's .327 in 2nd place)
    2nd in HR's (41 behind Josh Hamilton's league leading 42)
    1st in RBI (130 over Hamiton's 123 in 2nd place)

    I know WAR is the newest "in" stat and is usually the first thing people point to in favor of Trout winning the MVP. 10.2 for Trout, 6.6 is second in the AL (with Cabrera 3rd at 6.5). I know Trout's been great, but I just can't see how they can't give it to Cabrera especially if he pulls off the triple crown.

    What do you guys think? Who's your AL mvp?
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  2. #2
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Everyplace I've read/heard it seems people are ready to crown Mike Trout the RoY AND mvp this season. I'll admit, he's got a pretty darned good case for it. But Miguel Cabrera has really snuck up on me. This late in the season, we've got a legitimate triple crown candidate.

    1st in BA (.333 over Trout's .327 in 2nd place)
    2nd in HR's (41 behind Josh Hamilton's league leading 42)
    1st in RBI (130 over Hamiton's 123 in 2nd place)

    I know WAR is the newest "in" stat and is usually the first thing people point to in favor of Trout winning the MVP. 10.2 for Trout, 6.6 is second in the AL (with Cabrera 3rd at 6.5). I know Trout's been great, but I just can't see how they can't give it to Cabrera especially if he pulls off the triple crown.

    What do you guys think? Who's your AL mvp?
    I think defense and baserunning matter too.

    - Trout is a gold glove caliber CF, who has stolen 46 bases and got caught just 4 times and grounded in to just 7 double plays (and don't tell me about opportunities while citing RBI...)

    - Miguel Cabrera is a DH playing 3B who has stolen 4 bases in 5 attempts while grounding in to a league leading 28 double plays.

    WAR is the "in" stat because it look at all the ways a player produces and saves runs. And when you do that, the idea that Cabrera deserves MVP over Trout is sort of silly -- tantamount to saying defense and baserunning simply do not matter at all.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  3. #3
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    I don't disagree. Defense & baserunning most certainly matter. But if he pulls off the triple crown...which hasn't been done since Yaz...I just don't see how they CAN'T give it to him.

    I just think it puts things in a very interesting situation. By the new standards, it's clearly Trout's to lose. But by the old standards, how can the triple crown winner (possibly) NOT be the league MVP? It just struck me as a very interesting scenario shaping up (if he pulls it off that is).
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  4. #4
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I don't disagree. Defense & baserunning most certainly matter. But if he pulls off the triple crown...which hasn't been done since Yaz...I just don't see how they CAN'T give it to him.

    I just think it puts things in a very interesting situation. By the new standards, it's clearly Trout's to lose. But by the old standards, how can the triple crown winner (possibly) NOT be the league MVP? It just struck me as a very interesting scenario shaping up (if he pulls it off that is).
    They can not give it to him because he isn't as valuable as Trout.

    Lou Gehrig won the triple crown one year and finished 5th in the MVP voting. Ted Williams won it twice and didn't get the MVP in either year.

  5. #5
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    I think the triple crown is kind of a cute stat, like the cycle, but the argument for Cabrera is that he's been - by a good margin - the best player in the batter's box in either league this year, and he unselfishly moved back to third base (losing a fair amount of weight to do it) without complaining openly and played adequately there.

    The argument for Trout is that he has been the second-most-valuable offensive player in the major leagues even if you disregard his defense [link]. Even if you're skeptical about advanced defensive metrics - as am I - it's obvious that he's been a standout defensive player.

    These are both very special players.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

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    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili View Post
    I think the triple crown is kind of a cute stat, like the cycle, but the argument for Cabrera is that he's been - by a good margin - the best player in the batter's box in either league this year, and he unselfishly moved back to third base (losing a fair amount of weight to do it) without complaining openly and played adequately there.

    The argument for Trout is that he has been the second-most-valuable offensive player in the major leagues even if you disregard his defense [link]. Even if you're skeptical about advanced defensive metrics - as am I - it's obvious that he's been a standout defensive player.

    These are both very special players.
    It also hasn't been over 40 years since someone hit for the cycle.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  7. #7
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    It also hasn't been over 40 years since someone hit for the cycle.
    Rarity and value are not the same thing.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  8. #8
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Trout.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  9. #9
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Trout is the most valuable player in the American League. And baseball for that matter. Whether or not he wins the award is in question (although I think he will). Whether or not he deserves it is not in question. He's the most valuable player in the AL, and should win the award, and I certainly hope he does.

    Citing WAR as the "in" stat is mocking the fact that value should be placed on defense and baserunning. Trout plays a difficult defensive position, and plays it incredibly. While being a great power threat, and a baserunning threat. He's as close to a perfect baseball player as you could craft in today's game.

  10. #10
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Trout is the most valuable player in the American League. And baseball for that matter. Whether or not he wins the award is in question (although I think he will). Whether or not he deserves it is not in question. He's the most valuable player in the AL, and should win the award, and I certainly hope he does.

    Citing WAR as the "in" stat is mocking the fact that value should be placed on defense and baserunning. Trout plays a difficult defensive position, and plays it incredibly. While being a great power threat, and a baserunning threat. He's as close to a perfect baseball player as you could craft in today's game.
    Just to be clear, I wasn't mocking WAR. Far from it. I was only pointing it out because prior to this season they never included WAR in the listed stats on ESPN and now that they do, more people are aware of it. Like it or not, not everyone is a SABR fan. As for me personally, I'm aware of what WAR is, but to be honest I have zero clue as to how it's figured.

    The point I was trying to make is that the triple crown is a very rare achievement by current standards. For a player to get that and NOT win the MVP will be pretty shocking to most average baseball fans. The SABR followers, not so much. It just seemed like a perfect example of old school vs. new school.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  11. #11
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Just to be clear, I wasn't mocking WAR. Far from it. I was only pointing it out because prior to this season they never included WAR in the listed stats on ESPN and now that they do, more people are aware of it. Like it or not, not everyone is a SABR fan. As for me personally, I'm aware of what WAR is, but to be honest I have zero clue as to how it's figured.

    The point I was trying to make is that the triple crown is a very rare achievement by current standards. For a player to get that and NOT win the MVP will be pretty shocking to most average baseball fans. The SABR followers, not so much. It just seemed like a perfect example of old school vs. new school.
    Right. I didn't mean to imply you were mocking WAR, I was really referring to the media types that tend to dismiss it.

    Triple crown is extremely rare, and incredibly impressive. I don't think it necessarily should translate to MVP automatically, but I'm sure there are several that will vote that way.

  12. #12
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Triple Crown = MVP. Regardless of the saber stat guys objections. I still like Josh Hamilton in that race. It's nice to lead a stat that nobody can compute and Trout is a great player, but the MVP should be won by someone that puts stats on the board that are essential to baseball and have been historically. I have never heard anyone say, "wow, your WAR was really helpful that game!" Not that I don't think it is some indication of how good a player is. But winning the Triple Crown? C'mon, that's what every hitter in baseball dreams of. Ask Trout if he would rather lead the league in WAR or win the Triple Crown. Go ahead.

    Bum

  13. #13
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Triple Crown = MVP. Regardless of the saber stat guys objections. I still like Josh Hamilton in that race. It's nice to lead a stat that nobody can compute and Trout is a great player, but the MVP should be won by someone that puts stats on the board that are essential to baseball and have been historically. I have never heard anyone say, "wow, your WAR was really helpful that game!" Not that I don't think it is some indication of how good a player is. But winning the Triple Crown? C'mon, that's what every hitter in baseball dreams of. Ask Trout if he would rather lead the league in WAR or win the Triple Crown. Go ahead.

    Bum
    Talking to Cabrera: "Wow, your bat was really helpful that game".
    Talking to Trout; "Wow, your bat, glove and baserunning was really helpful that game".

    Ask Cabrera if he would like to steal bases and win a gold glove. This focus on the triple crown stats is so hypocritical of people who hate on sabermetrics. Defense matters. Baserunning matters. Miguel Cabrera outright sucks at both of those things while Mike Trout is among the best in baseball at them. Ignoring that because Cabrera has performed well in a subset of hitting stats just boggles my mind.

    Miguel Cabrera is hitting .333/.398/.613. That's awesome. But Trout is hitting .324/.392/.551. That's awesome too. Cabrera has been a bit better at the plate. But Trout absolutely blows him out of the water everywhere else. Since when did Most Valuable Player become Most Valuable Batter? You don't need WAR to know which guy has done more to help his team win.

    As for the whole playoffs thing, the Angels are 81-69. The Tigers are 79-70. Don't tell me Cabrera is more deserving of MVP because the A's are a better team than the White Sox.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #14
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    T But winning the Triple Crown? C'mon, that's what every hitter in baseball dreams of. Ask Trout if he would rather lead the league in WAR or win the Triple Crown. Go ahead.
    Leading the league in WAR means that you are the best player in the league when you factor in hitting, defense running etc. Winning the triple crown means you lead the league in BA, HR's and RBI's. Maybe if it was close, but Trout is posting unbelievable type numbers.

    If you ask Trout whether he'd rather be a hitter like Cabrera or an all around stud like himself, you know how he'd answer. And so would every GM.

    Maybe it's what every "hitter" draems of, as that is what Cabrera is, a "hitter". But Trout is a ballplayer. And the world's best one at that.

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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    The point I was trying to make is that the triple crown is a very rare achievement by current standards. For a player to get that and NOT win the MVP will be pretty shocking to most average baseball fans. The SABR followers, not so much. It just seemed like a perfect example of old school vs. new school.
    Except even in the the old school era, winning the triple crown certainly didn't guarantee winning the MVP.


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