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Thread: AL mvp....

  1. #151
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Simply put, because no, I am not making the argument for you, and I disagree with the bulk of this....

    But, there would be no need for a positional adjustment if WAR's basis was to compare players at their own position. Yes, it does do that as well, however, as every catcher gets the same positional adjustment as every other catcher (and so on for other position), there would be no rhyme or reason for it to exist if the purpose was to compare players at their own position. They all start on the same basis.

    However, a catcher, and a first basemen do not, because the positional adjustment works to give credit, essentially to the positional scarcity that players that play more difficult positions deserve in making an even playing field. It allows for a more even baseline so that we can judge players relative to others at their own position for the purpose of comparing the same player to all other positions.

    So yes, you are correct in saying one component of what it does, however, it does so for the purpose of being able to directly compare overall value to other positions, which is the end purpose of the metric. Again, we are already able to compare a catcher to another catcher without a positional adjustment. The remainder of the value components of WAR complete that purpose. It's the positional adjustment that takes it the next step. If WAR was not being used for the purpose we are suggesting, the positional adjustment would not be included, as it is null and void in completing the objective you are discussing.
    You made my point because you admitted that the metric was, in fact, measuring the value of a player's contribution relative to a replacement player at his own position. If that weren't at least a partial aspect of the stat, there'd be no reason for the positional adjustment. You'd simply compare players to the total contribution of runs created/saved. You don't need to know what position someone plays to compare what they produced. We already know that without finding the replacement level of the position. You can already compare Mike Trout to Ryan Braun to see who the *better* player is. You need the positional adjustments to see what *value* they have over a replacement at the position they play.

    We can argue semantics all day, but the bottom line is that the stat does absolutely measure replacement level over same position players. That's exactly what the output measures... the number of wins above a replacement player at the same position. It's astounding to me that anyone is disagreeing with that simple statement. That's the whole calculation in a nutshell. We can argue semantics at the 'purpose,' but that is in fact what the stat does.

    This is basic economics. Some products might not have as good of quality as another product. But supply and demand might make that product more valuable despite being of a lesser quality. WAR doesn't aim to measure the quality of the product, but rather add in the supply/demand value aspect of the positions.

    One last time... Ryan Hanigan isn't a better baseball player because he plays at a position with lesser talent. All that means is he's a more valuable baseball player. WAR is meant to measure value, not necessarily talent/production. You don't need to know replacement level to compare players across different positions if all you want to know is who the better baseball player is.
    Last edited by Brutus; 09-26-2012 at 03:23 AM.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  3. #152
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    WAR normalizes for position therefore it does not represent number of wins above a replacement level at the same position. It represents the number of wins above a replacement level player regardless of position. This is not a matter of opinion. It's a structural reality of the metric which neccesarily colors one's appropriate interpretation. Frankly, the adjustment for the difference between replacement level and average is window dressing-I.e a nod to the popular acceptance of marginal value in sabermetrics- rather than essential because the position adjustment essentially gives WAR it's ability to compare all players to all players on the same plain. Really, this point, again, is not a matter of opinion. It's derived fom how WAR is actually calculated.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #153
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Right now, on MLB Network, Mitch Williams is vehemently arguing that Cabrara should win the AL MVP because he had a better Sept than Trout, when the games really matter. Seriously, I am not making this up.

    If ever you needed proof that Trout should be MVP...
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  5. #154
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Right now, on MLB Network, Mitch Williams is vehemently arguing that Cabrara should win the AL MVP because he had a better Sept than Trout, when the games really matter. Seriously, I am not making this up.

    If ever you needed proof that Trout should be MVP...
    I have seen more than a few people, people who vote for the awards, bring up the same thing. I don't agree with it at all, because all of the games matter.

  6. #155
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I have seen more than a few people, people who vote for the awards, bring up the same thing. I don't agree with it at all, because all of the games matter.
    Yep, it's one of the most illogical arguments made. It was used against quite a few unpopular Reds by many Reds fans in the past.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  7. #156
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Yep, it's one of the most illogical arguments made. It was used against quite a few unpopular Reds by many Reds fans in the past.
    If Cabrera had Beltre's glove, maybe the argument might be compelling especially with Cabrera challenging for the triple crown while Detroit is looking like theyll win the division.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #157
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Mike Trout is the first rookie with 30 home runs and 40 steals. He has 48 steals with 4 games left. If he gets two more steals, he will be only the 3rd player ever with 30 home runs and 50 steals, joining Eric Davis and Barry Bonds.

  9. #158
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    ". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

  10. #159
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili View Post
    nothing an in line spinner wouldn't catch.
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  11. #160
    Plan to be spontaneous Jefferson24's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Mike Trout is the first rookie with 30 home runs and 40 steals. He has 48 steals with 4 games left. If he gets two more steals, he will be only the 3rd player ever with 30 home runs and 50 steals, joining Eric Davis and Barry Bonds.
    Eric doesn't need any company.
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  12. #161
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    You made my point because ..........
    If you think Patrick Batemen made your point then you aren't comprehending what he is saying.

  13. #162
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Terry Francona says that Cabrera would get his vote because the Tigers are going to the playoffs.

    FTR, the Angels have a 2 game lead over the Tigers.... they just happen to be in 3rd place in their own division. Another person who is willing to punish a player because someone else plays in a weaker division.

  14. #163
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    I saw this article this morning. If most of the writers feel like this, I wouldn't hold out much hope for Trout to win the MVP - especially if Miggy gets the Triple Crown.

    http://www.sports-reference.com/blog...into-war-zero/
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  15. #164
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Miggy took the HR title lead with his 44th today.
    He's going to win the Triple Crown and the MVP.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  16. #165
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    Miggy took the HR title lead with his 44th today.
    He's going to win the Triple Crown and the MVP.
    Kind of too early to make that proclamation with still two games to go (as far as winning the T.C.)

    And to be honest, I think Trout will win the MVP regardless.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


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