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Thread: AL mvp....

  1. #31
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    His willingness to play 3B poorly just so that the Tigers could use Delmon Young and his .270/.302/.419 bat at DH made the Tigers better?

    The Tigers could easily have signed Fielder, put one of those two at DH, given 3B or SS to somebody who knows how to use a glove and been just as well off.

    I think we all agree Cabrera's offensive numbers are impressive. But being the best all around player in baseball on a playoff contender is pretty awesome to. To put this in a different context, would Joey Votto be more valuable if he moved from 1B to RF and pushed Bruce to CF so that the Reds could play Miguel Cairo every day at 1B? Because that's approximately what the Tigers did.
    Uh...the Tigers have some guy named Victor Martinez who got hurt that also plays 1B...so the Tigers would have had 3 1B/DH's...Cabrera agreed to play 3B so that the Tigers could sign Fielder, it had nothing to do with Delmon Young...sigh...

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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    Which is where the team performance comes in.
    Ted Williams, of course, famously lost the MVP in 1942 and 1947 (to Joe Gordon and Joe Dimaggio of the pennant-winning Yankees in each case), despite triple crown years.
    He also lost in his .406 season to Dimaggio who had that 56 game hit streak with the, you guessed it, pennant winning Yankees.
    True, but Williams was left off the ballot in at least one of those years by the BOS sportswriters because of his feud with them.
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    Re: AL mvp....

    This is a hard one for me because both of those players play on teams that are not currently in a playoff position. It isn't like last year where Kemp and Braun had similar stats but Braun got the check mark because the Brewers were playoff bound.

    I still think the Triple Crown does matter considering it hasn't been done since the 1960's. If Cabrera gets it, I think he would have to win the MVP. However, I'm currently in the Trout camp. He completely changed the game in LA. Pujols started playing better when he came up. Plus, he's a leadoff hitter. To me, runs scored is the equivalent of RBI's for leadoff hitters. He leads all of baseball in runs scored. He's also saved a ton of runs. I take WAR with a grain of salt. It tells a story but isn't the end all. Still, if a player is something like 2 WAR better than the next player, that clearly tells you that the player is the most dominant player in the league that year.

    For right now, it's Trout for me but if Cabrera gets that mythical Triple Crown, Cabrera should get it.
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  5. #34
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    This kinda reminds me of the McGwire and Sosa HR chase a number of years ago. McGwire broke the record but Sosa won the MVP.

    If Cabrera wins the triple crown I don't know how he doesn't win the MVP. I would go down as one of the greatest offensive seasons in recent history.

  6. #35
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    This kinda reminds me of the McGwire and Sosa HR chase a number of years ago. McGwire broke the record but Sosa won the MVP.

    If Cabrera wins the triple crown I don't know how he doesn't win the MVP. I would go down as one of the greatest offensive seasons in recent history.
    I guess compared to the rest of the league it would be but Pujols 2008 season seems to be the gold standard of recent great seasons. Also, you have to remember that Pujols came into the league in 2001 when Bonds was putting up those crazy numbers. Pujols never reached those numbers that Bonds put up but many of his years early in the 2000's were significantly better than the season Cabrera is putting up now.
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  7. #36
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    Uh...the Tigers have some guy named Victor Martinez who got hurt that also plays 1B...so the Tigers would have had 3 1B/DH's...Cabrera agreed to play 3B so that the Tigers could sign Fielder, it had nothing to do with Delmon Young...sigh...
    My bad -- but the basic point still stands. That Cabrera was willing to move to a defensive position where he sucks may have be a nice thing to do and it might have have allowed his team to add talent, but it doesn't make him personally more valuable. That his front office couldn't add talent to the roster without creating a defense that may well cost the team a playoff spot should not be a feather in Cabrera's cap.

    In giving Cabrera extra credit, you're essentially penalizing Trout for having the audacity to simply play a high value defensive position from the get go. If we're going to talk about the value of defense, it's no contest. And if we're going to talk about replacements, let's consider that Trout's presence has allowed the Angels to let a washed-up Bobby Abreu go and to not have to play Peter Bourjos and his limp-noodle bat.

    The Triple Crown is an awesome statistical achievement and if there were an award for best hitter, I'd give it to Miguel Cabrera. Bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, 2 on, down 3, Cabrera is right there with Votto as the guy I want up. But being the best hitter and a good teammate does not mean you're the most valuable player, especially if you cost your team runs in the field and on basepaths.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 09-21-2012 at 12:50 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    My bad -- but the basic point still stands. That Cabrera was willing to move to a defensive position where he sucks may have be a nice thing to do and it might have have allowed his team to add talent, but it doesn't make him personally more valuable. That his front office couldn't add talent to the roster without creating a defense that may well cost the team a playoff spot should not be a feather in Cabrera's cap.

    In giving Cabrera extra credit, you're essentially penalizing Trout for having the audacity to simply play a high value defensive position from the get go. If we're going to talk about the value of defense, it's no contest. And if we're going to talk about replacements, let's consider that Trout's presence has allowed the Angels to let a washed-up Bobby Abreu go and to not have to play Peter Bourjos and his limp-noodle bat.

    The Triple Crown is an awesome statistical achievement and if there were an award for best hitter, I'd give it to Miguel Cabrera. But being the best hitter and a good teammate does not mean you're the most valuable player, especially if you cost your team runs in the field and on basepaths.
    BS! Saying Cabrera agreed to play 3B so the Tigers could add another bat has nothing to do with Trout. Your basic point was that Cabrera moved to 3rd so Young could suck at DH; your point is moot since that was certainly not the case as Fielder does not suck. Willingly moving to another position goes a long way in the locker room and you know it. Tossing it off as nothing is just playing to your argument regardless of facts. Cabrera is certainly not costing his team anything. He's as good as anyone in the game right now and his presence on any team would make that team better by leaps and bounds regardless of his defensive liabilities.

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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    This is a hard one for me because both of those players play on teams that are not currently in a playoff position. It isn't like last year where Kemp and Braun had similar stats but Braun got the check mark because the Brewers were playoff bound.

    I still think the Triple Crown does matter considering it hasn't been done since the 1960's. If Cabrera gets it, I think he would have to win the MVP. However, I'm currently in the Trout camp. He completely changed the game in LA. Pujols started playing better when he came up. Plus, he's a leadoff hitter. To me, runs scored is the equivalent of RBI's for leadoff hitters. He leads all of baseball in runs scored. He's also saved a ton of runs. I take WAR with a grain of salt. It tells a story but isn't the end all. Still, if a player is something like 2 WAR better than the next player, that clearly tells you that the player is the most dominant player in the league that year.

    For right now, it's Trout for me but if Cabrera gets that mythical Triple Crown, Cabrera should get it.
    Firstly, voters tend to give the MVP to players who were on contenders, not necessarily winners. Braun has rallied the Brewers into being a contender for the wild card spot (along with the previous contenders' inability to win much down the stretch).

    With respect to Trout, we aren't talking about a 2 difference in WAR. We are talking about 3.7.

  10. #39
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    BS! Saying Cabrera agreed to play 3B so the Tigers could add another bat has nothing to do with Trout. Your basic point was that Cabrera moved to 3rd so Young could suck at DH; your point is moot since that was certainly not the case as Fielder does not suck.
    Willingly moving to another position goes a long way in the locker room and you know it. Tossing it off as nothing is just playing to your argument regardless of facts.[/quote]

    I'm sure it means a lot to people in the clubhouse. Good for him. Maybe they'll be more likely to go out to dinner with the guy or let him choose what songs to play in the locker room. But those good feelings don't play defense or run the bases.

    But we're also talking about the reality of how the season has played out. And the reality is that the Tigers DH for most of the season has been Delmon Young. So while the move to 3B for Cabrera could have resulted in having all 3 guys in the lineup, the reality is that it didn't. How much credit should we give a guy for making a move that materially resulted in harm to his team's defense because it could have let the team have a better DH -- even though it actually didn't work out that way? That strikes me as quite the stretch. Give Cabrera good teammate of the year if you want, but his move has not helped the Tigers win baseball games this year.

    Cabrera is certainly not costing his team anything. He's as good as anyone in the game right now and his presence on any team would make that team better by leaps and bounds regardless of his defensive liabilities.

    Bum
    Yes. His BAT is as good as anybody's in the game right now. Nobody is denying that. Nobody is arguing that Cabrera wouldn't make any team significantly better. Those are strawmen argument. Calling a guy the second most valuable player in the league is not an insult nor a dismissal of his talent and production. It's just arguing that somebody else has been better.

    You can't just dismiss defense and baserunning out of hand like they are completely irrelevant. Cabrera is a great player and is having an awesome season; one of the best in baseball this year. And it was awfully nice of him to offer to do his job playing a position he already knows how to play -- that doesn't mean he gets credit for Prince Fielder being a great hitter. None of that changes the reality that Mike Trout's on the field performance has provided more value to his team this year than Cabrera.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 09-21-2012 at 02:53 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. #40
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    There have been four Triple Crown winners who were not named league MVP and in each year the Triple Crown winner lost the award to (1) a player with a lower WAR score who (2) played on a pennant winner.
    In 1933 Chuck Klein won the Triple Crown with .368 28 120 along with league leading .422 OBP and .602 SLG but the MVP went to Giants ace Carl Hubbell who went 23-12 with a 1.66 ERA, both NL bests. Hubbell had the better WAR, 8.6 to 7.3, not that WAR was calculated then. More importantly, while Klein won the Triple Crown, his numbers actually were "down" from previous seasons, and Hubbell played for the pennant winner.
    In 1934 Lou Gehrig won the Triple Crown with .363 49 165, along with AL best .465 OBP and .706 SLG. Lou's WAR was much higher than AL MVP Mickey Cochrane, 10.1 to 3.7. However, Cochrane was the player-manager of the pennant winning Tigers.
    Ted Williams captured the Triple Crown in 1942 with .356 36 137 along with AL best .499 OBP and .648 SLG. Ted's WAR led as well at 10.2, with AL MVP Joe Gordon finishing second with a 7.8. Gordon did lead in AL in grounding into double plays with 22 and tied for the most errors by any AL second baseman--but Gordon played on the pennant winning Yankees.
    In 1947 Teddy Ballgame won another Triple Crown, joining Rogers Hornsby as a two time winner, but he again was denied the MVP despite AL leading numbers of .343 32 114 .499 .634 as voters gave the MVP to Joe DiMaggio. Williams lead in WAR at 9.6 while DiMaggio was 9th in WAR at 4.5--but the Yankee Clipper played for the pennant winner.
    These votes are decades old but would indicate that if Cabrera wins the Triple Crown he will probably be named AL MVP unless the Tigers fail to make the pst season and Trout's Angels do make the post season. There is no precedent for a Triple Crown winner who played on a pennant winner being denied the MVP award.
    This doesn't mean that Cabrera is better than Trout, though.
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 09-21-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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  12. #41
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    So he's the MVP if he happens to hit an extra homer than Hamilton the rest of the way?

    Seems kind of arbitrary at this point. He's either been more valuable than Trout or he hasn't.

    He simply has not been, and it's not particularly close.
    I'm not saying it should be, I'm just saying that's pretty obviously what's going to happen.
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  13. #42
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Talking to Cabrera: "Wow, your bat was really helpful that game".
    Talking to Trout; "Wow, your bat, glove and baserunning was really helpful that game".

    Ask Cabrera if he would like to steal bases and win a gold glove. This focus on the triple crown stats is so hypocritical of people who hate on sabermetrics. Defense matters. Baserunning matters. Miguel Cabrera outright sucks at both of those things while Mike Trout is among the best in baseball at them. Ignoring that because Cabrera has performed well in a subset of hitting stats just boggles my mind.

    Miguel Cabrera is hitting .333/.398/.613. That's awesome. But Trout is hitting .324/.392/.551. That's awesome too. Cabrera has been a bit better at the plate. But Trout absolutely blows him out of the water everywhere else. Since when did Most Valuable Player become Most Valuable Batter? You don't need WAR to know which guy has done more to help his team win.

    As for the whole playoffs thing, the Angels are 81-69. The Tigers are 79-70. Don't tell me Cabrera is more deserving of MVP because the A's are a better team than the White Sox.
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  14. #43
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Miguel Cabrera has a 170 OPS+ in 646 PA's.
    Mike Trout has a 166 OPS+ in 584 PA's.

    Slight Advantage Cabrera.

    Mike Trout plays premium defense at a premium position.
    Miguel Cabrera plays bad defense at a middle range defensive position.

    Huge advantage Trout.

    Mike Trout is an outstanding base runner.
    Miguel Cabrera is a below average base runner.

    Huge Advantage Trout.

    Trout looks better in jeans. We are also selling jeans.

    Advantage Trout.

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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    I'm not saying it should be, I'm just saying that's pretty obviously what's going to happen.

    I wouldn't take that bet to Vegas if I was you.

  16. #45
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    Re: AL mvp....

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I wouldn't take that bet to Vegas if I was you.
    The writers love the Triple Crown business. Anytime a player even remotely threatens to win it, they track it daily.

    On top of that, nobody has done it in over 40 years. I guarantee you, if Cabrera wins the Triple Crown, he will win the MVP. I would bet my house on it. To be honest, I'm surprised we're even debating it.
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