This is a hard one for me because both of those players play on teams that are not currently in a playoff position. It isn't like last year where Kemp and Braun had similar stats but Braun got the check mark because the Brewers were playoff bound.
I still think the Triple Crown does matter considering it hasn't been done since the 1960's. If Cabrera gets it, I think he would have to win the MVP. However, I'm currently in the Trout camp. He completely changed the game in LA. Pujols started playing better when he came up. Plus, he's a leadoff hitter. To me, runs scored is the equivalent of RBI's for leadoff hitters. He leads all of baseball in runs scored. He's also saved a ton of runs. I take WAR with a grain of salt. It tells a story but isn't the end all. Still, if a player is something like 2 WAR better than the next player, that clearly tells you that the player is the most dominant player in the league that year.
For right now, it's Trout for me but if Cabrera gets that mythical Triple Crown, Cabrera should get it.
This kinda reminds me of the McGwire and Sosa HR chase a number of years ago. McGwire broke the record but Sosa won the MVP.
If Cabrera wins the triple crown I don't know how he doesn't win the MVP. I would go down as one of the greatest offensive seasons in recent history.
I guess compared to the rest of the league it would be but Pujols 2008 season seems to be the gold standard of recent great seasons. Also, you have to remember that Pujols came into the league in 2001 when Bonds was putting up those crazy numbers. Pujols never reached those numbers that Bonds put up but many of his years early in the 2000's were significantly better than the season Cabrera is putting up now.
My bad -- but the basic point still stands. That Cabrera was willing to move to a defensive position where he sucks may have be a nice thing to do and it might have have allowed his team to add talent, but it doesn't make him personally more valuable. That his front office couldn't add talent to the roster without creating a defense that may well cost the team a playoff spot should not be a feather in Cabrera's cap.
In giving Cabrera extra credit, you're essentially penalizing Trout for having the audacity to simply play a high value defensive position from the get go. If we're going to talk about the value of defense, it's no contest. And if we're going to talk about replacements, let's consider that Trout's presence has allowed the Angels to let a washed-up Bobby Abreu go and to not have to play Peter Bourjos and his limp-noodle bat.
The Triple Crown is an awesome statistical achievement and if there were an award for best hitter, I'd give it to Miguel Cabrera. Bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, 2 on, down 3, Cabrera is right there with Votto as the guy I want up. But being the best hitter and a good teammate does not mean you're the most valuable player, especially if you cost your team runs in the field and on basepaths.
Last edited by RedsManRick; 09-21-2012 at 12:50 PM.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
BS! Saying Cabrera agreed to play 3B so the Tigers could add another bat has nothing to do with Trout. Your basic point was that Cabrera moved to 3rd so Young could suck at DH; your point is moot since that was certainly not the case as Fielder does not suck. Willingly moving to another position goes a long way in the locker room and you know it. Tossing it off as nothing is just playing to your argument regardless of facts. Cabrera is certainly not costing his team anything. He's as good as anyone in the game right now and his presence on any team would make that team better by leaps and bounds regardless of his defensive liabilities.
Bum
Firstly, voters tend to give the MVP to players who were on contenders, not necessarily winners. Braun has rallied the Brewers into being a contender for the wild card spot (along with the previous contenders' inability to win much down the stretch).
With respect to Trout, we aren't talking about a 2 difference in WAR. We are talking about 3.7.
Willingly moving to another position goes a long way in the locker room and you know it. Tossing it off as nothing is just playing to your argument regardless of facts.[/quote]
I'm sure it means a lot to people in the clubhouse. Good for him. Maybe they'll be more likely to go out to dinner with the guy or let him choose what songs to play in the locker room. But those good feelings don't play defense or run the bases.
But we're also talking about the reality of how the season has played out. And the reality is that the Tigers DH for most of the season has been Delmon Young. So while the move to 3B for Cabrera could have resulted in having all 3 guys in the lineup, the reality is that it didn't. How much credit should we give a guy for making a move that materially resulted in harm to his team's defense because it could have let the team have a better DH -- even though it actually didn't work out that way? That strikes me as quite the stretch. Give Cabrera good teammate of the year if you want, but his move has not helped the Tigers win baseball games this year.
Yes. His BAT is as good as anybody's in the game right now. Nobody is denying that. Nobody is arguing that Cabrera wouldn't make any team significantly better. Those are strawmen argument. Calling a guy the second most valuable player in the league is not an insult nor a dismissal of his talent and production. It's just arguing that somebody else has been better.Cabrera is certainly not costing his team anything. He's as good as anyone in the game right now and his presence on any team would make that team better by leaps and bounds regardless of his defensive liabilities.
Bum
You can't just dismiss defense and baserunning out of hand like they are completely irrelevant. Cabrera is a great player and is having an awesome season; one of the best in baseball this year. And it was awfully nice of him to offer to do his job playing a position he already knows how to play -- that doesn't mean he gets credit for Prince Fielder being a great hitter. None of that changes the reality that Mike Trout's on the field performance has provided more value to his team this year than Cabrera.
Last edited by RedsManRick; 09-21-2012 at 02:53 PM.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
There have been four Triple Crown winners who were not named league MVP and in each year the Triple Crown winner lost the award to (1) a player with a lower WAR score who (2) played on a pennant winner.
In 1933 Chuck Klein won the Triple Crown with .368 28 120 along with league leading .422 OBP and .602 SLG but the MVP went to Giants ace Carl Hubbell who went 23-12 with a 1.66 ERA, both NL bests. Hubbell had the better WAR, 8.6 to 7.3, not that WAR was calculated then. More importantly, while Klein won the Triple Crown, his numbers actually were "down" from previous seasons, and Hubbell played for the pennant winner.
In 1934 Lou Gehrig won the Triple Crown with .363 49 165, along with AL best .465 OBP and .706 SLG. Lou's WAR was much higher than AL MVP Mickey Cochrane, 10.1 to 3.7. However, Cochrane was the player-manager of the pennant winning Tigers.
Ted Williams captured the Triple Crown in 1942 with .356 36 137 along with AL best .499 OBP and .648 SLG. Ted's WAR led as well at 10.2, with AL MVP Joe Gordon finishing second with a 7.8. Gordon did lead in AL in grounding into double plays with 22 and tied for the most errors by any AL second baseman--but Gordon played on the pennant winning Yankees.
In 1947 Teddy Ballgame won another Triple Crown, joining Rogers Hornsby as a two time winner, but he again was denied the MVP despite AL leading numbers of .343 32 114 .499 .634 as voters gave the MVP to Joe DiMaggio. Williams lead in WAR at 9.6 while DiMaggio was 9th in WAR at 4.5--but the Yankee Clipper played for the pennant winner.
These votes are decades old but would indicate that if Cabrera wins the Triple Crown he will probably be named AL MVP unless the Tigers fail to make the pst season and Trout's Angels do make the post season. There is no precedent for a Triple Crown winner who played on a pennant winner being denied the MVP award.
This doesn't mean that Cabrera is better than Trout, though.
Last edited by RedsBaron; 09-21-2012 at 03:17 PM.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
Miguel Cabrera has a 170 OPS+ in 646 PA's.
Mike Trout has a 166 OPS+ in 584 PA's.
Slight Advantage Cabrera.
Mike Trout plays premium defense at a premium position.
Miguel Cabrera plays bad defense at a middle range defensive position.
Huge advantage Trout.
Mike Trout is an outstanding base runner.
Miguel Cabrera is a below average base runner.
Huge Advantage Trout.
Trout looks better in jeans. We are also selling jeans.
Advantage Trout.
The writers love the Triple Crown business. Anytime a player even remotely threatens to win it, they track it daily.
On top of that, nobody has done it in over 40 years. I guarantee you, if Cabrera wins the Triple Crown, he will win the MVP. I would bet my house on it. To be honest, I'm surprised we're even debating it.
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