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Thread: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

  1. #271
    Member blumj's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Anyone watching this other game? O's just took a 2-1 lead.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

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  3. #272
    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Thank goodness this time tomorrow we'll be arguing about the Reds instead of the Cardinals.

  4. #273
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    It's actually a great game. Saunders is mystifying the Rangers by throwing some key double play balls.

    This one actually feels like a playoff game. The Braves/Cards felt like a spring training game.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  5. #274
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    If we all have to wait and see if it is routine for five seconds, then it defeats the purpose of the rule.

    You can't decide, fifteen feet away from being caught that it is now routine.

    The fact that he waited tells you it wasn't. Apparent=obvious. If you have to wait until you're sure, it isn't obvious and therefore cannot be called immediately.



    The rule is not made in a vacuum. It has an intent. That SS could not double the runner by dropping the ball on purpose.
    The umpire was waiting to see if the infielder ever had to give more than ordinary effort and more importantly, had to see how long the ball would hang up giving the shortstop a chance to make a solid play on the ball. Since he never sprinted or never had to turn his back, he thus never had to give more than ordinary effort. The umpire was giving the benefit of the doubt to make sure he didn't have to since it was hit so high and so deep into the outfield.

    Again, I'm not trying to be as blunt as this but I have no choice... your interpretation of how ordinary effort is defined isn't correct. There is no hard and fast rule, but generally speaking, umpires use running/sprinting/turning one's back as a guideline as to whether more than ordinary effort was given.

    I was told over and over in umpires camp that you can wait to the very last second to make the call if it takes that long before you're sure an ordinary effort can be made. Whether you like it or agree with it or not, that is absolutely how umpires are trained. George has already said as much earlier in this thread and I'm certain he will agree with that.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  6. #275
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    Thank goodness this time tomorrow we'll be arguing about the Reds instead of the Cardinals.
    Why am I bitter about the draw?

    I'd rather play the Yankees in New York.

  7. #276
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    The umpire was waiting to see if the infielder ever had to give more than ordinary effort and more importantly, had to see how long the ball would hang up giving the shortstop a chance to make a solid play on the ball. Since he never sprinted or never had to turn his back, he thus never had to give more than ordinary effort. The umpire was giving the benefit of the doubt to make sure he didn't have to since it was hit so high and so deep into the outfield.

    Again, I'm not trying to be as blunt as this but I have no choice... your interpretation of how ordinary effort is defined isn't correct. There is no hard and fast rule, but generally speaking, umpires use running/sprinting/turning one's back as a guideline as to whether more than ordinary effort was given.

    I was told over and over in umpires camp that you can wait to the very last second to make the call if it takes that long before you're sure an ordinary effort can be made. Whether you like it or agree with it or not, that is absolutely how umpires are trained. George has already said as much earlier in this thread and I'm certain he will agree with that.
    No. Waiting means it isn't apparent. I have to wait and see if it's obvious? That makes no sense.

  8. #277
    Blowing away bad memories Redsfan320's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Been watching O's-Rangers since Bottom 1st. Has been a pretty good game. Didn't really get the trainers coming out, didn't really see anything with Darvish there, then that mess with the translator, but whatever. Don't really have much rooting interest here- I often root for TEX in the playoffs because they're usually there, and they're more likable than the Yankees. However, what a story BAL has been.

    Oh... and so ends the night for Saunders.

    320
    I'd rather listen to Kelch read the phone book than suffer through Thom Brennaman's attempt to make every instance on the field the most important event since the discovery of manned space flight. -westofyou

  9. #278
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    You were told in umpire camp that you can wait to make an infield fly call?

  10. #279
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    It's actually a great game. Saunders is mystifying the Rangers by throwing some key double play balls.

    This one actually feels like a playoff game. The Braves/Cards felt like a spring training game.
    Saunders is Al Leiter.
    VBR IS LIVING IN CINCINNATI...I FEEL GOOD!

  11. #280
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    You first said the rule didn't say immediately. Now you're saying tou can wait all day and THEN make the call immediately after you took ten seconds to reach your decision.

    I'm hung up on it because the rule is made for the benefit if the runner and no one else. How...does the runner know to risk advancing a base if the umpire doesn't immediately make the call? What point does that serve?

  12. #281
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    You first said the rule didn't say immediately. Now you're saying tou can wait all day and THEN make the call immediately after you took ten seconds to reach your decision.

    I'm hung up on it because the rule is made for the benefit if the runner and no one else. How...does the runner know to risk advancing a base if the umpire doesn't immediately make the call? What point does that serve?
    This. The Braves were defeated twice by this call.
    VBR IS LIVING IN CINCINNATI...I FEEL GOOD!

  13. #282
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think the Braves got hosed on that call, but they sure played poorly enough to deserve to lose. The Cardinals were less "offensive" in the way that they played that game, so as much as I think the call was horrible, I think the team that was the better team on this day won the game.
    A very poignant point that is usually overlooked in games like this. The call was bad, but not nearly as bad as the Braves defense.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  14. #283
    Member 15fan's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    My 9 year old daughter was at Larry Wayne's final game. There were plenty of tears tonight when she got home with the neighbors who took her.

    I'm no Braves apologist, but if I was at the game, I would've thrown my beer on the field, too. That was a horrible call.

    And for the record, there are very few things I like more than beer.

  15. #284
    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Virginia Beach Reds View Post
    Saunders is he-who-must-not-be-named.
    I normally don't like correcting people's posts, but this was a clear violation.

  16. #285
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    No. Waiting means it isn't apparent. I have to wait and see if it's obvious? That makes no sense.
    Seriously, take it up with the rules committee, major league baseball and all the instructional camps that have been teaching umpires to apply the rule in that form since its inception.

    Unless you think I'm a liar, I don't know why you're being so aggressive with me. I'm just telling you that is how it's enforced.

    It does NOT have to be apparent that an ordinary effort can be given right away. It doesn't have to be apparent halfway through the play. It can be apparent right up at the very last second and still be considered ordinary if the fielder never had to give extraordinary effort.

    You still haven't explained how it wasn't ordinary when the fielder never had to sprint to get to the ball. He was back pedaling the entire time and never had to turn his back into an all out sprint. Some would say that's ordinary.

    And even if you wouldn't, the threshold is not whether it should have been apparent immediately. He only has to call it when, in his judgment, it does become apparent.

    That is the rule. I'm 1,000 percent confident on that. That's how I was taught it, how I practiced it during drills and how I enforced it during legion games. That's how I learned it from former minor league umpires that taught me. That's how I read it in manuals and case books.

    If you think I'm lying, fine. But unless you think I'm lying, I'm telling you flat out how it's taught and how the rule is applied. Eliminate all your preconceived notions of what you think it should be. Because they're leading you down the wrong path on this.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


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