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Thread: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

  1. #241
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by mattfeet View Post
    I rest my case:
    It doesn't matter when Kozma gave up on the ball. The umpire only had to determine that if he hadn't given up on the ball, he could have caught it with ordinary effort. Two full seconds elapsed from the time he gave up on it and the time it dropped.

    Heck, look at your first image... where you note that Kozma had given up on the ball, it's still not even in the screen yet. So the umpire determined that had he not been called off/given up on it, he could have made an ordinary effort to catch it.

    That, by rule, is a correct interpretation. It's only subjective as to whether it was ordinary effort. But the rule was correct. Your photos actually help my case. The ball can't even be seen in the first image where Kozma starts forward. He had plenty of time to stay under it (or take a step to the left) in those two seconds.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  3. #242
    Member mattfeet's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    How can you say 2 seconds passed?! Look at my bottom pics. Kozma gave up on at and the time says 1:04. Next pic, ball landed, time - 1:04. Not even ONE full second passed.

  4. #243
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by FlightRick View Post
    The TV guys came the closest to hitting the nail on the head, I thought: the only reason this call is made is because it was an extra ump, in a position where there normally isn't an ump. Leave it up to the 2nd or 3rd base umpire, and all they see is the SS drifting out at a steady jog, and it probably never occurs to them to call an infield fly when the fielder is getting further and further away from the infield. But an ump down the LF line has a different perspective, and sees the LF running after the fly and still not getting to it as fast as the SS, so he calls the infield fly rule.



    Rick
    Bingo!!!

    I am not defending Holbrook because I felt it was a bad call but being in the position that he was which was out of the norm likely played a factor in the bad call being made. I know during the tournament season we go from a 2 man system to a 3 man and eventually a 4 man system and believe me when you make calls in different positions on the field than when you usually do it can be hard. Humans are creatures of habit and when we do things that we don't normally do it makes it tougher.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  5. #244
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by mattfeet View Post
    How can you say 2 seconds passed?! Look at my bottom pics. Kozma gave up on at and the time says 1:04. Next pic, ball landed, time - 1:04. Not even ONE full second passed.
    I've watched the 4:59 replay on MLB 10 times already. He stops and starts forward at 6 seconds. The ball lands at 8 seconds.

    That's how.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  6. #245
    Member mattfeet's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I've watched the 4:59 replay on MLB 10 times already. He stops and starts forward at 6 seconds. The ball lands at 8 seconds.

    That's how.
    But never mind the screen grab right in front of you. Yep, 2 seconds for sure.

  7. #246
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by mattfeet View Post
    But never mind the screen grab right in front of you. Yep, 2 seconds for sure.
    Except a major evidence issue: your screen grabs do not prove that Kozma stopped on the ball where your screen capture is paused. If you are even 1.1 seconds late in pausing the screen, then two seconds indeed could have lapsed.

    Just because you show him advancing at 1:26 doesn't mean he wasn't advancing at 1:25.

    If I were a defense attorney, that would be ripped apart in trial.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  8. #247
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Brutus I just think it bears pointing out that you are the only person on the entire Internet who I'm seeing say that was not a bad call.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  9. #248
    Member mattfeet's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Except a major evidence issue: your screen grabs do not prove that Kozma stopped on the ball where your screen capture is paused. If you are even 1.1 seconds late in pausing the screen, then two seconds indeed could have lapsed.

    Just because you show him advancing at 1:26 doesn't mean he wasn't advancing at 1:25.

    If I were a defense attorney, that would be ripped apart in trial.
    Whatever. Im done with this...Id rather argue with my dog.

  10. #249
    Member mattfeet's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Advancing? Which way? Look at the BOTTOM pictures.

    Kozma has his right foot planted, and is coming back TOWARDS the infield. Not even 1 full second later, the ball has not only dropped, but hit the ground, and is on it's way back up.

  11. #250
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Brutus I just think it bears pointing out that you are the only person on the entire Internet who I'm seeing say that was not a bad call.
    The only person on the entire internet eh? That's odd, considering I've seen several others.

    Nonetheless, hardly anyone knew about the tuck rule in the 2002 NFL playoffs. So I really don't care who agrees. It's not about popularity.

    All I know is that people are basically arguing that an umpire is in the wrong for enforcing a rule as it's taught to be enforced. I don't see that as arguing with me. I see that as arguing with the system and how the rule is interpreted.

    Major League Baseball will stand by the umpire as far as the interpretation is concerned. I'm fairly confident in that. It's, again, subjective as to whether he should have determined ordinary effort. But it's not because of when he made the call. I can't be any more clear on that. It does not have to be apparent until the last second and it could still be called correctly by rule.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  12. #251
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by mattfeet View Post
    Advancing? Which way? Look at the BOTTOM pictures.

    Kozma has his right foot planted, and is coming back TOWARDS the infield. Not even 1 full second later, the ball has not only dropped, but hit the ground, and is on it's way back up.
    I've watched this replay 10 times dude. Go to MLB.com and watch the highlight (the 4:59 version). He literally takes his final step back at the 6-second mark. The ball lands exactly at the 8-second mark.

    I don't know what else to tell you except my very elementary math education tells me that's 2 seconds.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  13. #252
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    The strongest argument that this was a bad call was that no double play was made, nor was one possible, even if Kozma didn't give up on the ball and let it drop on purpose.

    Umps make this call based on whether the person catching the fly ball could drop it and then get a double play, since that is the intent of the rule. Brutus might have a point with the way the rule is written, but not with the way the rule is interpreted and called on a regular basis.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  14. #253
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Whenever I was determining an infield fly, the first thing I tried to determine is could he drop this and easily turn a DP. That was not the case on this fly and that combined with my opinion (sorry Brutus) that it was late, make it a pretty awful call.

  15. #254
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    The only person on the entire internet eh? That's odd, considering I've seen several others.

    Nonetheless, hardly anyone knew about the tuck rule in the 2002 NFL playoffs. So I really don't care who agrees. It's not about popularity.

    All I know is that people are basically arguing that an umpire is in the wrong for enforcing a rule as it's taught to be enforced. I don't see that as arguing with me. I see that as arguing with the system and how the rule is interpreted.

    Major League Baseball will stand by the umpire as far as the interpretation is concerned. I'm fairly confident in that. It's, again, subjective as to whether he should have determined ordinary effort. But it's not because of when he made the call. I can't be any more clear on that. It does not have to be apparent until the last second and it could still be called correctly by rule.
    Players, umpires, analysts and people who are paid to watch this game, all have pointed out that it was BS call.

    If these were angry fans I'd get it. But these are people who are paid to understand the game.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  16. #255
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The strongest argument that this was a bad call was that no double play was made, nor was one possible, even if Kozma didn't give up on the ball and let it drop on purpose.

    Umps make this call based on whether the person catching the fly ball could drop it and then get a double play, since that is the intent of the rule. Brutus might have a point with the way the rule is written, but not with the way the rule is interpreted and called on a regular basis.
    It doesn't matter if a double play is feasible though. While that's the reason the rule was put in place, it's not the interpretation or application as to how it's actually called. Whether a double play is actually feasible is not even a consideration on whether the call should be made (though I agree it's counter-intuitive, but it's based on the KISS principle).

    And again, not to beat a dead horse, but it actually is enforced and interpreted this way. Always has been. Just one of those calls that you don't hear about very often because when it is called, either the announcers don't mention it or the player makes a catch without incident and there would have been no reason to know it was called.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


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