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Thread: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

  1. #391
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Former umpire Jim McKean told ESPN that he thought it was the correct call:

    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8467452

    He too must be a contrarian.
    That's just an umpire sticking up for his bretheren as his words don't even make any sense. He says in the first minute of that clip that the fielder can "just pick the ball up and throw to second and first for a double play". Well, who's he going to get at 1B? Is the hitter standing in the batters box this whole time? He also admits that the call wasn't made at the top of the arc. Mistake #2. Finally, it wasn't an infield fly. It was in the OF and it was the LF's ball to catch. Horrible call.

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  3. #392
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    That's just an umpire sticking up for his bretheren as his words don't even make any sense. He says in the first minute of that clip that the fielder can "just pick the ball up and throw to second and first for a double play". Well, who's he going to get at 1B? Is the hitter standing in the batters box this whole time? He also admits that the call wasn't made at the top of the arc. Mistake #2. Finally, it wasn't an infield fly. It was in the OF and it was the LF's ball to catch. Horrible call.
    Yep. There is a real "circle the wagons" motive to protect their fellow umpires. Holbrook made a bad judgment call when he invoked the infield fly rule but his much worse move was failing to do so immediately. The infield fly rule should not have been called, but it is to be called it must be called immediately.
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  4. #393
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    But I thought everyone on the internet and all the former players and announcers all said it was a good call

    Regardless, I don't watch Reynolds enough to have an opinion of him one iota. But his analysis is 100% spot-on.

    There's a reason why MLB immediately denied the protest (if it's a judgment call it would be denied anyhow but it puts to rest the idea that the rule was misapplied). The umpiring crew is unilaterally saying, even after review, they completely believe the right call was made. I absolutely positively agree with them.
    This is silly. The nature of the call and the controversy, did you expect a Jim Joyce type apology? A protested game upheld by their employers, you would expect them to admit it was a poor call?

    Brutus, your continued condescension in this discussion because you have umpired Legion ball is over the top in a Tracy Jones "I played the game" kind of way. I have seen those who disagree with you demonstrate an understanding of the application of this rule, and you continue to argue from authority, claiming to be the expert in the discussion. Now you're counting heads on who agrees with you--more arguments from authority.
    Last edited by traderumor; 10-06-2012 at 08:55 AM.
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  5. #394
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    I think it was a bad call, but I don't get the outrage some have. I do think there is some reasoning for making the call the way it was made though I think a no call would have been a better choice on that play.

    In the end, the team that made 3 ugly errors and didn't hit with runners on base was the losing team. The fact that they weren't rewarded for hitting a pop-up with men on first and second is far from the worst injustice in post season history.

    I wonder if the opponent would have been anyone other than the "evil" St. Louis Cardinals if the board would have been as adamant that the call should have gone Atlanta's way instead of the way it went.

    On another note, I love that the Orioles sent the Rangers home last night. The Rangers were annointed after they signed Darvish. Glad to see them go home early and some long suffering fans get the season extended for at least another series.
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  6. #395
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I wonder if the opponent would have been anyone other than the "evil" St. Louis Cardinals if the board would have been as adamant that the call should have gone Atlanta's way instead of the way it went.

    On another note, I love that the Orioles sent the Rangers home last night. The Rangers were annointed after they signed Darvish. Glad to see them go home early and some long suffering fans get the season extended for at least another series.
    Agree on the Cards being a big reason there is so much opposition to the call. Tough way for Chipper to go out. He says that he is to blame for the loss which is not entirely true but "the call" isn't the reason the Braves lost.

    Also agree with you on seeing the Rangers gone. The O's and the A's may very well face off iin about a week. They're both at the top of their game.

  7. #396
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    That's just an umpire sticking up for his bretheren as his words don't even make any sense. He says in the first minute of that clip that the fielder can "just pick the ball up and throw to second and first for a double play". Well, who's he going to get at 1B? Is the hitter standing in the batters box this whole time? He also admits that the call wasn't made at the top of the arc. Mistake #2. Finally, it wasn't an infield fly. It was in the OF and it was the LF's ball to catch. Horrible call.
    Of course. Last night the story was everyone in the world knew it was a bad call. Now if any umpires stay it's the right call, they're merely sticking up for one of their own.

    You think maybe it's possible that he's not sticking up for an umpire but rather knows how the rule is taught and applied and he actually thinks thereby it's the correct call? Hm, that couldn't be could it?

    The call doesn't have to be made at the top of the arc. Let's stop pretending that's a "mistake." Umpires are taught to, if possible, make it at the top of the arc. But there is nothing that says it has to be called that way. They are fully and totally within the rules to take more time if necessary (which McKean also points out). The rules actually say nothing about when the call is made. McKean's point about calling it at its apex is more about striving to find a balance of waiting and calling it in the air and that's how umpires are taught, but there is nothing precluding them from taking more time if necessary. They absolutely are within the rules to call it on its downward flight if it takes that long to make such a call.
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  8. #397
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Of course. Last night the story was everyone in the world knew it was a bad call. Now if any umpires stay it's the right call, they're merely sticking up for one of their own.

    You think maybe it's possible that he's not sticking up for an umpire but rather knows how the rule is taught and applied and he actually thinks thereby it's the correct call? Hm, that couldn't be could it?

    The call doesn't have to be made at the top of the arc. Let's stop pretending that's a "mistake." Umpires are taught to, if possible, make it at the top of the arc. But there is nothing that says it has to be called that way. They are fully and totally within the rules to take more time if necessary (which McKean also points out). The rules actually say nothing about when the call is made. McKean's point about calling it at its apex is more about striving to find a balance of waiting and calling it in the air and that's how umpires are taught, but there is nothing precluding them from taking more time if necessary. They absolutely are within the rules to call it on its downward flight if it takes that long to make such a call.
    I'm not saying that not making the call at the top of the arc makes it against the rules. I'm just saying that it "ought" to be called that way so everyone on the field clearly knows the call and this ump agreed.

    Now can you explain to me what this ump meant by letting the ball drop and getting an out at 2nd and 1st ? I sure have no idea what scenario he was referring to

  9. #398
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Braves played AWFUL baseball (if you can call it baseball). Chipper choked in his last game. Shame. The call didn't help. The "infield" in the infield fly rule has been drifting towards the outfield for years, as have the infielders (nobody trusts those plodding LFs anymore!).
    One game. Win or go home. It was as promised.

    NEXT!
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  10. #399
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    This is silly. The nature of the call and the controversy, did you expect a Jim Joyce type apology? A protested game upheld by their employers, you would expect them to admit it was a poor call?

    Brutus, your continued condescension in this discussion because you have umpired Legion ball is over the top in a Tracy Jones "I played the game" kind of way. I have seen those who disagree with you demonstrate an understanding of the application of this rule, and you continue to argue from authority, claiming to be the expert in the discussion. Now you're counting heads on who agrees with you--more arguments from authority.
    First, please spare me the lecture about condescension considering your first reply to me in this thread was essentially pointing a finger and accusing me of arguing just to argue. That kind of reply is inherently full of condescension, so I don't think there's any grounds to call me on that from you. Especially since people have been coming at me with "contrarian" telling me how wrong I am and how awful of a call it was, I think I have a little right to bite back... especially when not the whole world actually does think it was the wrong call after all.

    Now that's out of the way...

    Umpiring legion ball was not meant to be some kind of notch on the bedpost. It was only brought up because legion ball uses the same rules as MLB and umpires are taught to umpire games, when possible, just as MLB crews work (except unfortunately many times its' a 2-man crew instead of 4-man). The point was not to act like "oh wow, he umpired legion ball" but rather to merely point out that as far as rules are concerned, legion and MLB are apples to apples because legion uses the MLB rulebook. If it had been any other level, I might not have brought it up, but I had to know and understand the Major League rulebook for several years and infield fly rules was always a huge point of emphasis during various clinics. It's a lot different when you're not only reading the rules but being instructed on how they're to be interpreted.

    You can call it arguing from authority or whatever you want. But the premise on why this was a bad call has been wrong on several levels from the very start of the thread because whether you want to hear it or not, the public's understanding of the rule has not been very good. And that's why umpires are standing behind the call... not out of a sense of some imaginary brotherhood for their comrades but because the public doesn't know this rule very well. If they did, no offense, there still wouldn't be issues about how 'late' the call was or how the 'spirit' of the rule means it shouldn't have been called. Those things are, frankly, immaterial.

    The gist of the rule comes down to this and only this: did Pete Kozma have to exert more than "ordinary effort" to make a play on the ball. People here are basically suggesting that umpires are only sticking up for each other. I'm suggesting that perhaps it's what I was saying all along: there is essentially a loose standard for what constitutes ordinary effort by umpires (though as I said last night, it is by no means hard and fast), and because of that, a lot of umpires would make that same call if not most. But already now that McKean has spoken up, he's just 'sticking up for one of his own.'
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  11. #400
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I'm not saying that not making the call at the top of the arc makes it against the rules. I'm just saying that it "ought" to be called that way so everyone on the field clearly knows the call and this ump agreed.

    Now can you explain to me what this ump meant by letting the ball drop and getting an out at 2nd and 1st ? I sure have no idea what scenario he was referring to
    It's certainly ideal to call it at that point when possible. And that's how umpires are trained to do it, if they can.

    I *think* he meant throw to third and second rather than second and first.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  12. #401
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    Braves played AWFUL baseball (if you can call it baseball). Chipper choked in his last game. Shame. The call didn't help. The "infield" in the infield fly rule has been drifting towards the outfield for years, as have the infielders (nobody trusts those plodding LFs anymore!).
    One game. Win or go home. It was as promised.

    NEXT!
    No question the Braves played a horrible game and no one has a problem with the game being affected by their play. The issue stems from the impact of a horrible call by the umps. That's hard to take

  13. #402
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I *think* he meant throw to third and second rather than second and first.
    Suffice to say that you're like me in that you have no idea what he was saying as he worded it. I was just wonderin' if I was missing something because it sure made no sense to me.

  14. #403
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    No question the Braves played a horrible game and no one has a problem with the game being affected by their play. The issue stems from the impact of a horrible call by the umps. That's hard to take
    It will probably lead to defining the rule a bit better. That's good. Back in the days (talking 70s and 80s), that ball would not have been an infield fly, among other reasons because the infielders would let the outfielders have it.
    I didn't like the call, but it was borderline bad compared to some of the stuff that had been called in the playoffs over the last decade (the Twins/Yankees foul ball in 2009 comes to mind).
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  15. #404
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    One of the worst umpiring calls I have ever seen occurred in a little league about 10-12 years ago. In the sixth inning (the final inning in little league) I was coaching third base with the bases loaded and with one out, our team down by a couple of runs. Our batter hit a pop up over the pitcher's mound. I yelled at our baserunner on third base to stay on the base. He did. The pitcher failed to catch the ball despite giving an all out effort (remember this was little league). When the ball hit the ground, with absolutely no call by the umpire, I yelled at our runner on third base to go home, since there was now a force out available at every base. He went home but was tagged out.
    Only then did the umpire yell "infield fly rule. The batter is out. The runner coming from third is out. Game over."
    I immediately grabbed my two sons and escorted them from the field before their father said something to the umpire I knew he might later regret.
    The infield fly rule does not just come down to whether or not the ball could be caught with "ordinary effort." The rule says that if the infield fly rule is to be called it is to be called "immediately." That was what the umpire in that long ago little league game failed to do. That is also the failure that occurred in last night's Cards-Braves game.
    In the little league game the infield fly rule should have been called. The untimeliness of the call was not "immaterial"-it was the very essence of why the call was wrong.
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 10-06-2012 at 10:14 AM.
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  16. #405
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Postseason Scoreboard watching....

    By the way, the assertion that there is no "brotherhood" among umpires is IMO bovine excrement. There is a tendency among just about every group of professionals to stick together and hesitate to admit that another professional made a error.
    Lawyers will privately confide to each other when they believe that another lawyer made a mistake in judgment but they are much more reluctant to criticize their colleague in public, at least colleagues in the same legal community. Good luck getting one trial judge to criticize another openly-they tend to publicly pretend that all of their colleagues are John Marshall. It is difficult to get one doctor to testify that another doctor, at least in the same locale, committed medical malpractice. I am not in the least surprised that umpires stick up for their colleagues.
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