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Thread: Reds to offer Baker a contract

  1. #46
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Why? Because I asked you a question you don't want to answer?

    So do you believe the manager has no input regarding which players on are his team? I believe they do.

    It sounds like some people want to give Dusty credit for the players who performed well, but the blame for the bad players goes to Walt Jocketty.
    Do you ever stop to think maybe you're being a little hostile about the Dusty situation, and it's getting on people's nerves? No he's not a perfect manager. Fine, you want a change. Many do. But do you really think, with a different manager, things would've been any different? He doesn't make a dramatic difference. But I don't believe he hurts the team. You can cite all the negatives, many of them which I won't disagree with. But I can cite just as many positives. At worst, he's neutral.

    I respect you as a poster, never had a problem with you. And still don't. But you're showing little respect for a man, IMO, that deserves more than his fair share.

    Of course the manager has some input with players. But do you really think Walt would sign off on it if he disagreed? Dusty gives input, but the bottom line is Walt decides. Dusty can only put the guys on the field that he's given. Lineup construction an issue? We won 97 games. Look at this roster. Can you see us squeezing out that many more wins with what we have? For all the whining people do about the crap players we have and how much they play, we STILL won 97 games. Dusty deserves no credit for that?

    Be careful what you wish for, my friend. A new manager is likely to leave you shaking your head and muttering yourself just the same. Yankee fans complained about Torre. Braves fans about Cox. Cardinals fans about LaRussa. Everyone has their flaws.

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  3. #47
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    It sounds like some people want to give Dusty credit for the players who performed well, but the blame for the bad players goes to Walt Jocketty.
    And vice versa. For years.

  4. #48
    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Why? Because I asked you a question you don't want to answer?

    So do you believe the manager has no input regarding which players on are his team? I believe they do.

    It sounds like some people want to give Dusty credit for the players who performed well, but the blame for the bad players goes to Walt Jocketty.
    You didn't ask a question, you pretty much just said I was wrong. Let's just be honest here and admit that neither of us know a single thing about what roles the manager and general manager fill. It's a little abrasive to imply you do.

  5. #49
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Would Price leave if Dusty left? That's one thing that gives me major pause. I am a huge fan of Price and want him here no matter what.
    I'd seriously doubt Price would leave because of Dusty. He was hired independent of Dusty and has one of the best pitching staffs in all of baseball. Not likely to give up that gig.

    I honestly believe that Price is one of, if not the best, pitching coach in all of baseball. Mike Maddux is very good and others have had sustained success. Price is just THAT good. His complete understanding of mechanics, ability to teach adjustments, keep the staff on a strict schedule and play psychologist to a very diverse, dynamic crew is remarkable. No way I let him walk.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

  6. #50
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    You didn't ask a question, you pretty much just said I was wrong. Let's just be honest here and admit that neither of us know a single thing about what roles the manager and general manager fill. It's a little abrasive to imply you do.
    No, I asked a question and you didn't want to answer. Yes, I think we both know quite a bit about the roles of a GM and a manager. It is not a secret. I don't think that is abrasive at all.

  7. #51
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    No, I asked a question and you didn't want to answer. Yes, I think we both know quite a bit about the roles of a GM and a manager. It is not a secret. I don't think that is abrasive at all.
    I'll be glad to answer: I've always been of the belief that the GM makes the roster and the manager manages it. Walt signed Valdez and wrote up the contract for Cairo. Dusty for sure had input, but I find it hard to believe Jocketty is giving Dusty everything he wants considering those decisions likely come back on him more than Dusty. This is entirely my foggy perception of what may or may not happen behind closed doors though.

  8. #52
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    Do you ever stop to think maybe you're being a little hostile about the Dusty situation, and it's getting on people's nerves? No he's not a perfect manager. Fine, you want a change. Many do. But do you really think, with a different manager, things would've been any different? He doesn't make a dramatic difference. But I don't believe he hurts the team. You can cite all the negatives, many of them which I won't disagree with. But I can cite just as many positives. At worst, he's neutral.

    I respect you as a poster, never had a problem with you. And still don't. But you're showing little respect for a man, IMO, that deserves more than his fair share.

    Of course the manager has some input with players. But do you really think Walt would sign off on it if he disagreed? Dusty gives input, but the bottom line is Walt decides. Dusty can only put the guys on the field that he's given. Lineup construction an issue? We won 97 games. Look at this roster. Can you see us squeezing out that many more wins with what we have? For all the whining people do about the crap players we have and how much they play, we STILL won 97 games. Dusty deserves no credit for that?

    Be careful what you wish for, my friend. A new manager is likely to leave you shaking your head and muttering yourself just the same. Yankee fans complained about Torre. Braves fans about Cox. Cardinals fans about LaRussa. Everyone has their flaws.
    No I am not hostile about the Dusty situation. I am entitled to an opinion too. I have said many, many times that Dusty is an average manager. For some reason there are a lot of people that get all upset if someone doesn't think Dusty Baker is a fantastic manager. I gave my opinion that he is not fantastic and that he does have flaws, some of which are glaringly obvious. Some people can't handle it when I say that. He also has strengths which I have detailed several times in various threads. I respect Dusty Baker, but I don't think he was a major reason why the 2012 Reds were so much better than Dusty's 2011 Reds.

    The "we won 97 games" refrain is meaningless. Dusty is the same manager doing the same things as 2011 when the team had a losing record. The same criticisms from 2011 are still valid today. Unless you think that Dusty Baker is the reason the Reds won 20 more games this year than last year then it is unfair to say that Dusty is immune from all criticism because the Reds won 97 games this year. If Dusty is the reason the Reds improved so much then why didn't Dusty do it last year? Was he as awful last year as he was great this year? Clearly, the reason the Reds won 97 games this year is the addition of Mat Latos, Ryan Ludwick, Todd Frazier, Zack Cozart and Sean Marshall. Dusty was just along for the ride doing the same things he has always done. I don't think Dusty really deserves much of the credit for the 97 win season. I don't think he managed much better than he did last year. He is a decent manager, but definitely replaceable if you don't think decent is good enough.

    I believe that the talent on this team if utilized properly could have scored quite a few more runs over the course of the season. So yes, the Reds would likely have won a few more games with a manager that was better at lineup construction and in-game strategy than Dusty Baker was.

    I also believe that Bryan Price has much more effect on the team's won/loss record than Dusty Baker does.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 10-13-2012 at 01:58 AM.

  9. #53
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    I'll be glad to answer: I've always been of the belief that the GM makes the roster and the manager manages it. Walt signed Valdez and wrote up the contract for Cairo. Dusty for sure had input, but I find it hard to believe Jocketty is giving Dusty everything he wants considering those decisions likely come back on him more than Dusty. This is entirely my foggy perception of what may or may not happen behind closed doors though.
    OK. Good answer.

    I believe that Walt and Dusty speak almost every day during the season and frequently in the off-season. They discuss the players. They discuss which ones Dusty would like to replace and which ones he wants to keep. They discuss potential replacements from other organizations and free agents. Dusty tells Walt which players he wants to acquire. Walt listens. Walt shares his opinions. They come to a consensus. They make a list of players they both want. Walt goes out and tries to sign or trade for those players that both he and Dusty like. I don't think Walt goes out and gets players that Dusty doesn't want anything to do with. The players they acquire are guys that both of them wanted. They may not be their first choices, but they were all on their mutual list of targets. They are working together to build the best team they can. Both of them deserve credit and blame for the roster.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 10-12-2012 at 11:52 PM.

  10. #54
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    OK. Good answer.

    I believe that Walt and Dusty speak almost every dayduring the season and frequently in the off-season. They discuss the players. They discuss which ones Dusty would like to replace and which ones he wants to keep. They discuss potential replacements from other organizations and free agents. Dusty tells Walt which players he wants to acquire. Walt listens. Walt shares his opinions. They come to a consensus. They make a list of players they both want. Walt goes out and tries to sign or trade for those players that both he and Dusty like. I don't think Walt goes out and gets players that Dusty doesn't want anything to do with. The players they acquire are guys that both of them wanted. They may not be their first choices, but they were all on their mutual list of targets. They are working together to build the best team they can. Both of them deserve credit and blame for the roster.
    Good answer as well. I think we've covered enough ground that one of us might even be right!

  11. #55
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    I'll be glad to answer: I've always been of the belief that the GM makes the roster and the manager manages it. Walt signed Valdez and wrote up the contract for Cairo. Dusty for sure had input, but I find it hard to believe Jocketty is giving Dusty everything he wants considering those decisions likely come back on him more than Dusty. This is entirely my foggy perception of what may or may not happen behind closed doors though.
    Cairo deserves more respect than that. He hurt his hamstring early in the year and never really recovered. Regardless, the Reds got a lot of value from him off the bench in his entire stay here, so some slack should be in order for him having a subpar year. Probably asking too much though. We're RZ, we must run guys into ground powder.
    Can't win with 'em

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  12. #56
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Cairo deserves more respect than that. He hurt his hamstring early in the year and never really recovered. Regardless, the Reds got a lot of value from him off the bench in his entire stay here, so some slack should be in order for him having a subpar year. Probably asking too much though. We're RZ, we must run guys into ground powder.
    I never even said anything negative about Cairo, let alone ran him into ground powder. I actually completely agree. Dude was a solid role player the last few years. LIke I said in another thread, take a 200 at bat sample from any utility player and it's not always going to be pretty.

  13. #57
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Cairo deserves more respect than that. He hurt his hamstring early in the year and never really recovered. Regardless, the Reds got a lot of value from him off the bench in his entire stay here, so some slack should be in order for him having a subpar year. Probably asking too much though. We're RZ, we must run guys into ground powder.
    Cairo embarrassed himself this year. He was simply awful both at the plate and in the field.

  14. #58
    Member Reds/Flyers Fan's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Cairo deserves more respect than that. He hurt his hamstring early in the year and never really recovered. Regardless, the Reds got a lot of value from him off the bench in his entire stay here, so some slack should be in order for him having a subpar year. Probably asking too much though. We're RZ, we must run guys into ground powder.
    So the Reds were playing even more short than we thought a lot of the time. I like Miguel Cairo, but even at 100 percent I'm not sure he's an answer. If he was hurt, why was he still here? And why was no move made at the deadline to upgrade/replace an admittedly injured player?

  15. #59
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    I didn't see it mentioned, but the article also said the Reds are looking to bring back all the other coaches.

  16. #60
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Reds to offer Baker a contract

    So with some, I guess they should have left Dusty off the post-season roster too. LOL
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