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Thread: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

  1. #91
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Didn't Cincinnati do exactly that in OTR and that is why OTR is improving?
    That's kind of a myth. The "gentrification" that supposedly took place mostly pushed people to other sections of OtR (although some of it went to other nearby neighborhoods e.g. Price Hill). There's still plenty of low-income housing available there, and there always will be.

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  3. #92
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post

    BOTTOM LINE:
    If you lived in Clifton and/or went to school in Clifton, then chances are VERY HIGH that you or someone you know has been robbed, assaulted, or both. You can't even say that about Downtown Cincinnati. It's sad, but it's true. There are many reasons for this, none of which have anything to do with race, and as pointed out, have more to do with the socio-economic status of the surrounding area. ...not that you would know any of this, because as you pointed out earlier, you are merely trolling.
    Counter-point: I lived in Clifton for the better part of a decade doing my undergrad and grad school work and was never once robbed, assaulted or anything of the sort nor do I remember anything more serious than a car break-in happening to anyone I was friends with.

    I used to run laps around the campus very late (between 11PM and 2AM) and I cannot remember a situation where I felt unsafe doing so.

    I'm not saying that there is no crime but as with most things if you exercise a little common sense and don't put yourself in bad situations chances are very good that you'll be fine.

  4. #93
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Clifton is pretty safe. But if you're in Corryville (e.g. Short Vine), you're going to run into problems sooner or later. That place has deteriorated for years. The conspiracy theorist in me says there was an effort to lower property value so it would be easier to buy it all, and allowing crime was the easiest way to do that. I have a lot of anecdotal evidence to back that up, and all you need to do is talk to business owners around that area to find out how plausible it is. UC is Cincinnati's biggest employer and have been growing at a swift rate. Their influence is grossly underestimated.

  5. #94
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    A lot of the crime in "Clifton"--maybe most of it--comes from Mt. Auburn, Over-the-Rhine, etc. You're talking about people with hardly any money being surrounded by kids who come from money. It's easy pickin's. They come up to Clifton and University Heights, look for unattended cars (especially ones with unlocked doors), steal what they can, and go back. There isn't a lot of violent crime involved. It's more inconvenient than it is unsafe. The violent crimes in this city are drug-related, and the people with crack and meth problems aren't hanging out on UC's campus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nate1213 View Post
    < http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...click_check=1>

    Says if this happens, which should be in 2013, would become like a Dallas-Fort Worth area, so Cincinnati-Dayton. Cincinnati would become the 15th largest city in America with just a little over 3 million people.
    Driving 75 between the two cities you almost don't leave development now. When I was a kid you left town past West Chester (the SR 129 was new and the exits in that area weren't as developed as they are now) and was in rural areas until the Dayton Daily building. In 20 years that corridor will be suburban sprall hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redsrolen View Post
    I grew up in Richmond In, right on the Ohio boarder...We had Dayton & Cincy TV & spent alot of our mini vacations going to 'Crosley Field', 'Coney Island' & the 'Zoo'....I love the charm of the city on the waterfront!!
    I wanted to relive some of those memories this summer & went to 'Coney' & the 'Zoo' & had a great night out...I've been in Indy for the last 22 yrs & love it but Cincy has a big piece of my heart & always will!!
    Indy is great. Of course all cities where a lot of people live are going to have pockets of crime areas. Cincy gets a bad rap from outsiders. There's areas to avoid like everywhere else but not like people say. I overheard someone on Crosley Terrace say before game 3 of the Giants series "don't go north of 3rd St.", which is asinine.

    BTW I am from Cambridge City, and live in New Paris now. There's only a couple Wayne County peeps on this board AFAIK.

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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    I'm shocked that no one has mentioned schools.

    Every single person I know who has lived in the city limits has moved out once their kids were born. Every single one. And a good number of those still don't send their kids to public schools.

    I was privately educated and I'm all for that choice, but if a huge number of families moves out of the city limits to avoid the city schools, then the schools don't get any better and the city doesn't get any bigger.

    And every election, I hear about some levy failing in some suburban school district. Extracurriculars cut, buses cut, on and on. People by and large seem more interested in protecting their wallets than investing in the future of their community's kids. Again, that's a personal choice, but there's no question that that's going to hamper community growth in the long-term.

    Cincinnatians have a reputation for being averse to change. The most common argument I hear against public transportation in the city is "people like their cars." It's not the only reason I hear; I also hear about inefficient planning and cost (though I hear more complaints than proposed solutions). But mostly I hear about people liking cars. That kind of mentality is stifling long-term. It's why I left (so I'm part of the problem too). I think Cincinnati is a beautiful city and I would love to be able to be closer to my family and my beloved sports teams. But I am a city-dweller, and I have no patience for a city that is averse to investment in its future, averse to change, averse to integration. There's a real sense that change is too hard so why bother? It's defeatest and depressing.
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  9. #98
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    I'm shocked that no one has mentioned schools.

    Every single person I know who has lived in the city limits has moved out once their kids were born. Every single one. And a good number of those still don't send their kids to public schools.

    I was privately educated and I'm all for that choice, but if a huge number of families moves out of the city limits to avoid the city schools, then the schools don't get any better and the city doesn't get any bigger.

    And every election, I hear about some levy failing in some suburban school district. Extracurriculars cut, buses cut, on and on. People by and large seem more interested in protecting their wallets than investing in the future of their community's kids. Again, that's a personal choice, but there's no question that that's going to hamper community growth in the long-term.
    I don't think schools is a problem that is unique to Cincinnati.

    As for levys failing, I don't think it's as simple as protecting their wallets as opposed to investing in their future. I do think people want what is best for their kids but I do some work for a market research company. Every so often we do surveys for potential levys in the area. Of course I don't know the whole story for every district but it seems like people don't believe that building new buildings, etc. will do that much good. I hear these people talk about how the school district squanders the money raised from levys passed just recently. It's a small sample size to be sure and I do hear people who are willing and able to vote for levys so maybe it evens out. But I certainly can't blame people who are closer to the situation than I am to not want to throw good money after what they believe is bad.
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    I'm shocked that no one has mentioned schools.

    Every single person I know who has lived in the city limits has moved out once their kids were born. Every single one. And a good number of those still don't send their kids to public schools.

    I was privately educated and I'm all for that choice, but if a huge number of families moves out of the city limits to avoid the city schools, then the schools don't get any better and the city doesn't get any bigger.

    And every election, I hear about some levy failing in some suburban school district. Extracurriculars cut, buses cut, on and on. People by and large seem more interested in protecting their wallets than investing in the future of their community's kids. Again, that's a personal choice, but there's no question that that's going to hamper community growth in the long-term.

    Cincinnatians have a reputation for being averse to change. The most common argument I hear against public transportation in the city is "people like their cars." It's not the only reason I hear; I also hear about inefficient planning and cost (though I hear more complaints than proposed solutions). But mostly I hear about people liking cars. That kind of mentality is stifling long-term. It's why I left (so I'm part of the problem too). I think Cincinnati is a beautiful city and I would love to be able to be closer to my family and my beloved sports teams. But I am a city-dweller, and I have no patience for a city that is averse to investment in its future, averse to change, averse to integration. There's a real sense that change is too hard so why bother? It's defeatest and depressing.
    3CDC has invested over 350 million dollars in the city's core and OTR since its inception. That's serious investment in the city's future. While many are averse to change, I'd argue that a strong majority has been raising the banner of change and innovation for quite some time. Look at the work the city's Park Board has done lately. I'd also argue that the city is making great strides in integration. Have you visited Washington Park since its remodel? You'd think you were somewhere in New York, not Cincinnati. Have you followed the work the Port Authority is attempting to do in Bond Hill?

    For me, the defeatest and depressing aspect is in the fact that we refuse to rally around the city. The tired resignation that this city will always be second class is what holds it back. In fact, the responses in this thread have only bolstered my theory. I've witnessed an almost universal failure to recognize the great strides Cincinnati has made in the last few years. What's the response to being named a top three travel destination? A snicker. It's really mind boggling to me.

    Of course, maybe that's the heart of the problem. We all want the best for the city, we're just not willing to roll up our sleeves and do the hard work to get it done. It's much easier to say things will never change. It's much easier to ignore the hard work and progress. It's much easier to criticize from afar and wait for the momentum to sputter out. Sometimes it's much easier to move away.
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  11. #100
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    3CDC has invested over 350 million dollars in the city's core and OTR since its inception. That's serious investment in the city's future. While many are averse to change, I'd argue that a strong majority has been raising the banner of change and innovation for quite some time. Look at the work the city's Park Board has done lately. I'd also argue that the city is making great strides in integration. Have you visited Washington Park since its remodel? You'd think you were somewhere in New York, not Cincinnati. Have you followed the work the Port Authority is attempting to do in Bond Hill?

    For me, the defeatest and depressing aspect is in the fact that we refuse to rally around the city. The tired resignation that this city will always be second class is what holds it back. In fact, the responses in this thread have only bolstered my theory. I've witnessed an almost universal failure to recognize the great strides Cincinnati has made in the last few years. What's the response to being named a top three travel destination? A snicker. It's really mind boggling to me.

    Of course, maybe that's the heart of the problem. We all want the best for the city, we're just not willing to roll up our sleeves and do the hard work to get it done. It's much easier to say things will never change. It's much easier to ignore the hard work and progress. It's much easier to criticize from afar and wait for the momentum to sputter out. Sometimes it's much easier to move away.
    This is actually a more accurate way of expressing what I wanted to say. I want to be clear that what I find defeatest and averse to change *is* general attitudes of residents, not necessarily what the city is doing. I have been to Washington Park, I have been bowled over by the new section of OTR, and I haven't even seen the Banks yet, but I was very impressed with the plans, particularly the green space, as you mention.

    And my family, for example -- which is huge and diverse in terms of interests -- barely knows that this exists. I believe that one person in the entire family has seen any of these things. If you ask them anything about what is happening in Cincinnati, they will make some comment about the ineptness of city council, something catty about how long the Banks took to be built, and move on.

    Obviously, that's not everybody, but I have found it more widespread than I have other places. That, attitude, is a much harder thing to change than things themselves. People seem to take comfort, even pride, in their city being stuck. I just find it very frustrating. It's like Cubs fandom.

    And Chip, I do think that attitude spreads to schools differently than it does other places. The resignation of the quality of city schools is far worse than anywhere else I've lived. The schools themselves may not be worse, but with that attitude, it's harder for them to improve. Nowhere else, nowhere else I have lived (and I have moved a lot) have 100% of adults I know moved out of the city limits when their kids reached school age.
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  12. #101
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    On the subject of schools -- I just bought a home within the city limits of Cincinnati. The first thing I noticed, while looking for homes w/ my wife-to-be, is how outrageously expensive property taxes are. It wasn't uncommon to see numbers breakdowns for various houses where the actual mortgage was $700-$800 per month, and the property taxes were over $400 per month on top of that.

    I admit, I'm a conservative guy by nature -- but I agree that good schools are in everyone's best interest. It's just very difficult to get me excited about voting for new school levies when so much money is being taken directly out of my pocket every month in property taxes already (in addition to city income tax I pay for working in Cincinnati, state income tax I pay for living in Ohio, and the federal income tax I pay at the base).
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    Well, I posted and highlighted it twice. If that's not good enough, forget it. Believe what you want.
    I think the problem Yachtzee was speaking of was how this site classified "similarly sized communities."

    As he pointed out, Cincinnati's smaller geographic footprint makes the crime that happens in a few specific areas look worse. This is because the city has a much smaller official population than many similar "Metropolitan centers."

    For instance, I don't think you'd have much of an argument that Cincinnati and Indianapolis are fairly similarly sized communities.

    In the data reported, Indianapolis came in as a 10, Cincinnati came in as a 1.
    However, when looking at the violent crime data provided, Indianapolis had 5,752 "violent crimes" while Cincinnati had 3,657 violent crimes.

    The secret to Indy's comparably good rating is it's larger geography. The city and county merged all but a few areas a few decades back. So Indianapolis has a population of 820,445, while the Queen City has almost a third of that at 296,943.

    Take a look at the cities on this list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

    Of the cities above or below Cincinnati's population by about 10K, how many would you actually believe Cincinnati is like? Maybe Pittsburgh?

    It's not a surprise that Cincinnati has a higher crime rate than Toledo, or Lexington, or Anchorage. There are more people congregating there, even if they don't officially live within the city limits.
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  14. #103
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    That's kind of a myth. The "gentrification" that supposedly took place mostly pushed people to other sections of OtR (although some of it went to other nearby neighborhoods e.g. Price Hill). There's still plenty of low-income housing available there, and there always will be.
    It is also kind of true. OTR has safe areas now and I am not so sure that it used to.

  15. #104
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It is also kind of true. OTR has safe areas now and I am not so sure that it used to.
    Right, well, you're mostly referring to Main Street. You probably don't remember what it was like down there before the race riot.

  16. #105
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    Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    Right, well, you're mostly referring to Main Street. You probably don't remember what it was like down there before the race riot.
    I don't know what it is like now. Still haven't been. Don't really care to go either. I don't go out much.


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